Can't believe I'm asking this
 

Hello,
Can't believe I'm having to ask this question, but I'm trying to describe what the airspace restriction is for on a chart. Take for example the airspace to the North West of Hawarden airfield. It has a restriction between 2000 ft and 3500 ft. During my training, I was only told to avoid this, and never thought to ask why (stupidly). What is the reason for it?
Thanks
JOMQ

I can't believe you're asking it either. "during my training". What training? It's on the chart, read it.

Erm, do you by chance mean the Liverpool CTA?
It's controlled airspace (class D) used for flights into/out of Liverpool.

If this isn't what's know in the RAF as a 'waaaa' then I'm rather hoping the 'training' hasn't yet got to the end?

Judging by your previous posts my friend, you should really sit down with an instructor and get totally straight with navigation as you're not too far away from some complex airspace, it's only this week that a pilot has been prosecuted for seriously busting Class D in the manchester area, don't be that guy!
PPRUNE is a great resource, but it seems some crucial understanding has been missed in your training that should've been picked up.

Easy, the guy may be just starting out on his PPL and hasn't got to the airspace part.

First of May he was planning a route from Cambridge to North Coates across the Wash. Don't sound like just starting out!
I would suggest he has a long serious talk with an instructor.

I've been looking at airspace charts online. The benefit of doing that is you can click on them, see what the restriction is, what the code is and then use Google for further information.

This drone site is actually very useful as you can use named filters and click on the restriction.
No Fly Drones

The area to the NW of Hawarden is Flint Castle. It's a "restricted" area by way of Private Land, By-Laws and Requested Zones.

Further quick seraches show similar areas around Wales which fall under CADW (Welsh Historical Preservation areas) who, it appears, have requested no flying areas around their Welsh monuments/historical areas.

The bit that is missing here is that nobody has described how access may be granted (or denied) to certain classes of airspace. The basic deal is airspace Class B to E is accessible to VFR aicraft but you must have a clearance before entering and comply with clearances given inside. This means you have to have plan with and without transit because you have no right of entry. Traffic loads often mean controllers are unable to grant transit clearance. Classes F & G are uncontrolled and you don't need a clearance. In each piece of airspace different rules regarding distance from clouds and flight visibility apply so again you may be denied access for thus reason.

PM

VFR traffic does not need a clearance to enter Class E airspace (but it would be a good idea to call the controlling authority on the notified frequency)
In Class F airspace, an Air Traffic Service is available to IFR traffic and VFR traffic does not need to call.

That is not shown on aviation charts, and doesn't have the vertical dimensions the OP described. He;s talking about something else, and as others have already said he shows a worrying lack of very basic airspace understanding.

I am not 100% sure that anyone actually attempted to respond to the question "why". I believe the OP understands that s/he cannot enter the airspace, but doesn't understand why that is.

Just north of Hawarden, is Liverpool which is a busy airport with commercial airliners flying in/out. The zone you mention (2000-3500') is the Liverpool CTA which is class D airspace. The airspace is class D, so as to ensure the safe and expedient routing of commercial traffic in and out of Liverpool airport. (big planes don't like us little planes getting in their way). The reason why it is between 2000 and 3500 (and not from the surface) is due to the fact that the airways that the big planes use (usually much higher than we fly) need a way to descend safely to the airport level, without having to risk it with us little planes getting in the way without their knowledge. This is why there is classified airspace along those routes. Airports that serve commercial traffic generally have STARs (Standard Terminal Arrival Routes) and SIDs (Standard Instrument Departure) [generally] with classified airspace along its entire routing. You can look at the standard routes by going to: NATS | AIS - Home and looking at the STARs and SIDs. This may help illustrate why the airspace has its particular shape. If you would like a graphical representation, look at Flight Radar, and see how the commercial planes fly in/out of the airport: https://www.flightradar24.com/53.38,-2.82/10

As mentioned above however, you do not necessarily need to go around that airspace, and you can request to transit the airspace. This is done by calling on the appropriate frequency [119.850], and requesting the transit - however also as explained above, you may very well be turned away, and always should plan a way around the airspace.

I hope this helps!

Thank you for the correction Chevvron. Not only should I have known, I should have checked before posting.

PM

It is curious that the OP refers to "Restricted" 2000--3500ft. It's not the terminology I would use.
Class D from - to, would sound better? Maybe I'm wrong but "Restricted" to me means, restricted zones, danger zones, prohibited zones, bombing ranges and the like.
The only "restricted" area I can see is R 311 up to 2200 ft, a circle 5miles north of Hawarden. Looks like some industrial complex.
So why the use of the word "restricted"?

R311 is Capenhurst. Uranium enrichment plant etc

Ok, for the OP. If you can't work out what the map is showing you and can't get anyone to help you fathom it, this is what you can do.

First draw a line on the map direct from A to B
Now decide your minimum and maximum altitude for the flight (break it up into shorter sections if the flight has a lot of hills, towns, or other obstructions). Choose your preferred altitude.

Now, for each section, draw a profile showing what the airspace is at your preferred altitude, and up to max and down to min altitude.

Here is a hint. Paper maps have a legend (says what the makings mean) in one corner.
Use this.

Anything that is Class E, F, or G is no problem. Anything else you either will have to get a clearance, should get flight information, or will need to treat as a brick wall.

Clearance needed? Plan to go through, after radio contact and clearance, with a backup that takes you round, over, or under in case you can't get clearance. Hint. The better prepared you are (clear radio calls, knowing where you are, where the VRPs are) the more likely you are to get a clearance.


Flight information helpful? Plan on going through with radio contact. Examples of this are MATZ, AIAA. Wouldn't hurt to have another option.

Brick wall? For example Class A airspace, PZ, or whatever your local authority considers sensitive. Over, round, or under.

This is why you do the plan view. So you can choose your altitude to avoid the bits you can't use, or put in turning points as required.

It this all sounds a bit daunting, start with a short route, write down your plog, without bothering to work out wind corrections, then either ask a friend to check or get a trial subscription to sky demon and use that to check your route. Revise what you missed.

Um. Please don't just put the route in SD without doing it first yourself. It's supposed to be a learning exercise.

Some airspace is modified at different times, or by notam. Another good reason for checking notams before flight. BTW, I've tried to make this non country specific. As the licence is often worldwide.

Piper Classique.
Your advice is excellent if directed at a 15 year old that learned to fly by crop dusting with his father in the Mid West.
This guy seems to have a PPL of some kind.
How can someone get through a PPL syllabus without knowing what controlled airspace is for?
He was told by his instructor to "avoid it"!??
This just doesn't smell right to me.

Yeah, ok guess you answered your own question

:oh:Ok, the OP could be a troll. Or then, he could be a new pilot who didn't have the world's best training, was told and failed to understand, was told and forget, and passed the exams by learning the answers by rote, then forgot. Either way, the advice might help him or someone else.
I know a lot of microlight pilots in France who don't know a lot about navigation, as it isn't actually a compulsory part of the training yet. Which is fair enough if flying a powered parachute I suppose.
Never underestimate a human beings capacity for ignorance.
But, yeah, a bit strange.

PC, your patience and warm heartedness do you credit. You spent time crafting a good answer and you are correct - it may help somebody other than the OP.

I'd be more inclined myself to answer questions from non-qualified posters if they were open about that and just admitted they were curious. We could point them to good websites or books.

Unfortunately, I'm going to go with not the world's best training. The school I attended had a very high pass rate, but I think that was probably because the examiner was a little too lenient (not sure what tolerances there are). When I took my test, I messed up on two parts, and was given a hint and another opportunity. Obviously, I was grateful, but can't help but think it wasn't for the best. I know full well that I need a bit more practise with an instructor before I do much flying, and I was aware it was Class D and the reasons for this (Thanks alex90 and PC).

I think I worded my question badly, making me appear slightly thicker than I actually am.

My instructor had a particular way of doing things which I think wasn't great. I didn't do PFLs until my 43rd hour (so after my QXC) and didn't even start on VOR until 2 lessons before my test as he thought I'd already covered it :/

Basically, I understand that obviously, around airports, there need to be routes for the airliners etc to descend etc etc, but what I couldn't quite get my head around is why in some places there is so much Class D airspace, and then when you get into Scotland, there's literally a few airports, but everywhere else is Class G.

I do get it, so thanks for those that made their contributions. To the guys that just rip the sugar out of me, I get that I may ask some stupid sounding questions, and I'm sorry, but hey ho.

If you take a look at the higher altitudes it all becomes a bit clearer - there's a 'spine' of airways running down the country connecting with the 'tracks' that airlines use to cross the Atlantic. The class D sections you're seeing effectively join up with this higher stuff which then joins with all the class A above FL195.
Down in the levels we fly at you are typically only seeing the bottom bits of this stepped system, hence random bits of 2500-3500 class D for no obvious reason.

Apologies if I was a bit harsh but it did come across as a very strange question for anyone that's passed for the PPL - you've got to expect a little Mickey taking.

Bit concerning about the 'no PFLs before the QXC thing' - what was the brief for if the donk failed?

Just One More Q

Head over to the Students section of the Flyer Forum, where there is a no-flaming policy and no question is a daft one.

There are too many pathetic egos needing a massage on here.

You won't regret it.

C.

I still stick to my word about finding another instructor to do some nav and going through things, it will save you a lot of trouble and make you enjoy flying though.
No question is a daft one correct, but a seemingly lack of training in 2017 is worrying and needs highlighting (and hopefully some serious auditing). Well done for realising that the blue licence doesn't mean the learning stops!

All the best.

I'm sticking to my views as well.
Not your fault but I don't think you were very well trained at all.
"Avoid class D" no PFLs etc.
A good session with a real instructor would help.

I don't see where the ego thing comes from either.

I'm sticking to my views as well.
One of them is that it is not possible to gain a ppl in the UK without understanding airspace. It's fundamental to the air law theory test for starters. Doesn't matter how poor your instructor is, it's an examiner who assessed the suitability of the candidate via a series of theory exams and a flight test.

Buy the air pilots manual navigation book and have a read, also worth a look at skydemon in order to better understand the airspace setup. After a while you will see that it is not that complicated after all. Interestingly having gained a clearance into Class D airspace recently and then having been asked to orbit, a shuttle callsign comes on the radio and says in a stern voice to the controller "did you know there is a high wing light aircraft circling on the coast line", the reply was "yes thanks, it is way below you so is not an issue" ..... Imagine that, a light aircraft in Class D, what was I thinking!

I say again - so forgive this old story.... wishing to transit Birmingham in my Supercub, properly equipped with all bells and whistles and my Instrument Rating, I asked the controller very nicely for permission.

"Negative" he said. and said it again three or four more times. I could hear no other traffic on the Brummie frequency. But gave up and spiraled down through the clag to Husbands Bosworth to wait out the weather.

And a BA pilot put in his two pence...."You're not in America now, you know!"

I wonder if any other readers have found it difficult to obtain clearances in the UK....

Because it's not a good flying day for me, and I'm concerned that a flying school somewhere has given a licence here. I'm going to have another go.
First.
Flying schools do not have a "pass rate". Students will either pass the GFT in a month or they may take years, or give up and leave.
The fact that controlled airspace is more crowded in the south is because there are more airfields close together down there than up here.
Every student pilot will be shown/will buy, a chart and be taught what classes of controlled airspace is for and why. Long before any test.
You didn't start VOR until two lessons before your test.
I don't think it is referred to as VOR, it is "radio navigation". And if you haven't grasped it your instructor would not put you through for the test until you had.
Test day does not just arrive at a particular time, you get recommended for the test when your instructor thinks you have learned enough to pass, not at the end of a time period.
"He thought I'd already covered it". No, he has your training record and the syllabus to hand.
The syllabus follows a sequence, signed for and followed by the instructor, any instructor can look at your record of progress and depending on that and the weather he will formulate the lesson. Not necessarily in 1,2,3,4 sequence but close enough.
Either your school was a bunch of utter Cowboys or fiddling your records I don't know.
Get your training records from the flying school and take them to a well known other school and discuss it with them.
There is something lacking in the basic understanding of flight training.
And I am not ripping the sugar out of you.
I'm more concerned for your, and everyone else's safety.

mary, I often found it difficult to obtain clearances through controlled airspace. Indeed, I got so fed up with them being refused that I simply planned to go around them - why plan two routes when one would do? I even once got jumped on for planning a turning point right on the edge of Birmingham's airspace. The controller said, "That's really close to us you know". Yes, I did know, since I had a chart. And I knew if I kept to the left of the road I was OK, and I knew the area well and was in a helicopter so both nav and precise flying were easy on a clear day. But she was adamant and obviously worried, so I sighed and didn't argue, and agreed a turning point a couple of miles away.

As for the original question, it really worries me if new-ish PPLs feel they can't ask something here for fear of being thought stupid. Also the way responders jump to conclusions...he doesn't know what controlled airspace is, arghhhh. That wasn't what he said! He knew you didn't go through it without permission. That is not the same as knowing why specifically that bit of airspace is controlled, which struck me as what was being asked...or it could be. People learn by asking questions. Those of us who know should be willing to answer them. That way someone learns more. And if his initial training wasn't that brilliant - well, mine wasn't either, and I filled in the gaps later on, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. That's what these forums are for, at least partly. Well, they were in the dim and distant past when I used to come here frequently, and they should be. If not, them I'm leaving for another few months or years.

I don't think he is being considered stupid.
Some of us are concerned at the quality/content of his training and advising him to get further help from a more professional organisation.
It wasn't just the airspace question, it was also coming across as if he thought the course amounted to a fixed number of lessons, full stop, test time! Etc. That may of course be wrong.
What's wrong with trying to point that out?

"What's wrong with trying to point that out?"

Absolutely nothing. But some posts - can't remember if yours was one of them - were coming across as highly critical of the questioner, not just the training organisation. If you look back, I'm not the only person who thought so. And if those posts made me cringe, I doubt if I'm the only one, as I'm not particularly sensitive. That's all.

I'm sorry but I've read it all again and I can't see anyone criticising the OP.
We are criticising his training. If any of mine have come across otherwise, my apologies.
On a side note, but related. I once had a notion to build a 3D model using blocks of translucent plastic stuck to the Scottish chart to physically show the airspace shapes. You could then poke a model of the aircraft under/over the shelves and see how it all fits together. Never got round to it but I thought it might help.

I don't read anything excessively critical of the OP but I do wonder why he hasn't been pointed more clearly at the most obvious solution: more training. If he is a genuine poster and does have a PPL, there's nothing at all to stop him going along to a reputable training organization and asking for a few hours of remedial instruction. Most training organizations I know would be happy to help and, indeed, I've known several mature-minded people, in both recreational and general aviation, who've done exactly that. No shame at all in asking for a supplementary navex through controlled airspace, then following it up by having an instructor (or experienced pilot) sit in the right hand seat while you do some more.

[quote
As for the original question, it really worries me if new-ish PPLs feel they can't ask something here for fear of being thought stupid. Also the way responders jump to conclusions...he doesn't know what controlled airspace is, arghhhh. That wasn't what he said! He knew you didn't go through it without permission. That is not the same as knowing why specifically that bit of airspace is controlled, which struck me as what was being asked...or it could be. People learn by asking questions. Those of us who know should be willing to answer them. That way someone learns more. And if his initial training wasn't that brilliant - well, mine wasn't either, and I filled in the gaps later on, BY ASKING QUESTIONS. That's what these forums are for, at least partly. Well, they were in the dim and distant past when I used to come here frequently, and they should be. If not, them I'm leaving for another few months or years.][/quote]

Absolutely, thank you Whirly :)

Crash One. I hear what you're saying, but I promise it's the truth. We went up 2 lessons before my test (which had already been booked). I was asked to do some RNAV once we were in the air, and when I asked him what to do, he realised we hadn't touched on it in the aircraft. I meant 1st time pass rate, rather than just general pass rate.

I'm moving 350 miles tomorrow, and will be finding a new flying club where I will be asking lots of questions before I do more flying. I am under no delusions that I need more training before I do more flying, but with time being quite limited, if I can ask questions on here and find out more, it'll save me valuable time at the instructor that I'll be paying for.

Thank you :)

Just one more question, that sounds like an excellent plan. You have your licence to learn, go and enjoy doing it. If you ever feel like spreading your wings in France, let me know and you can have a flight in the cub.
Oh , and one more thought. Most of the people here are basically helpful. You would probably like them if you met in the bar. Sometimes when posting or reading it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick. Anyway, remember what Jonathan Livingston seagull said "it's supposed to be fun"