So, I want to fly a jet
 

I'm soon about to complete my PPL and Night Rating. It's an ambition that's been with me for some years and I'm finally nearing the end. The bigger dream, however, is to fly a jet (Citation Mustang). Moreover, to own one. Before the catcalling may ensue, yes, I'm some time away from owning said jet, but it's a feasible dream and I am dreaming standing up, don't be concerned.

With that in mind then, would I be right in saying (considering I'll be a private pilot still) that what I require is thus:

MEP
ME-IR
JOC/MCC (so as to fly with a pilot in RHS, as opposed to just a JOC course)
Type Rating

I have been told I would also require a CPL and completion of all the ATPL's but I am confused why this would be necessary as I'm not looking to fly commercially?

Any advice would be very appreciated.

Thanks to all.

Insurance and capability aside, actually I think all you would need to fly it is the type rating.

MEP - multi engine piston. Doesn't apply to a jet.
MEIR - you will need this if you want to actually operate your jet meaningfully. You can fly it without but to get the full utility out of it you'll need an IR.
JOC/MCC - nope, this is an airline thing. I don't think it's a prerequirement. Might be a good idea though.

ATPLS - you'll need these to start the IR. CPL - doubt it.

I standby to be corrected on the above...

What will be more important is experience and hours. I would suggest going along the lines of the following route;

Cirrus, PC-12 or similar SET, Mustang. Your mileage may vary.

It's indeed a wise idea to step climb.
All this can be done with a PPL and IR + appropriate type rating.
I'd probably go Cirrus, TBM/PC12 then Light ( twin ) jet.

Mitsubishi MU-2 time...you'll learn to pay CLOSE attention to your airplane.

I'm not sure why you recommend him the airplane with the highest accident/fatality rate and one of the few that should really only be flown by professional pilots.
Flying a light jet is really not that much of a challenge apart from bringing your brain to think at 6-7miles/min instead of 2miles/min.

Interesting replies. Thanks guys.

I guess most TRTO's want to impose a deep understanding rather than just the bare minimum. One school told me that the Type Rating is only possible with a CPL and that is only achievable with passing the ATPL's.

hobbit1983, I added the MEP as IR training is mostly in a multi-piston. But interesting to think about it in the long run.

I guess step climbing the licenses and then a few would ultimately lapse once reaching the Jet.

Interesting regarding the JOC/MCC. Would I be right in saying that if I wanted a pilot in the RHS though, this would be necessary?

Thanks again!

No JOC or MCC required a Mustang is a CS23 aircraft and certified for single pilot ops and therefore does not require an MCC for the rating to be issued; even if you chose to operate it Multi Crew an MCC would not be mandatory for private ops. In-fact on private ops your "second pilot" would only be a "safety pilot" as multi crew time is only recognised on CS23 aircraft if you are under a multi crew ops AOC.
JOC is not an "actual recognised rating" and has no relevance to issue of further ratings. It seems to be something that ATOs now use to generate more revenue from under utilised sims.

An ME/IR is what is required to do the type rating so while the MEP does not need to current to start the rating, you generally need an MEP as the platform for doing the initial ME/IR.

An MCC is only needed for issue of a CS25 certified aircraft type rating.

Not disagreeing with the legalities of phf's post above, but I think that if you are going to fly with a second pilot, however your roles are *legally* defined, both of you having done the MCC course would make a lot of sense from a safety perspective to teach the two of you how to work well together.

I agree with that comment, Genghis. Interesting, though, that it's not a requirement.

Say, would insurance companies recognise that, if I did have it, and adjust accordingly?

So, is the bottom line here:

MEP (to kick start IR)
ME-IR
Type Rating

I have purchased, from a good friend and therefore good rate, the latest edition of Oxford's ATPL theory manuals. I intend to study them regardless of whether I would take the exams themselves or not. I like to be knowledgeable. Studied. Safe. As Johnny Five says: "Input, input, input!"

Let me ask this, then: what would you do?

Also, where would you suggest this be done? America is a choice for me, too.

If money is not your issue learn in the system you will be flying in. Go Stateside to broaden your horizons and learn new things, but if you are going to fly in a Europe why not fly learn to fly there. But the biggest question is why a jet? And why this one? Turbine singles offer similar performance, have similar gadgets and are easier to fly. Take a turbine Malibu for example. Lightweight, capable of operating from grass, FL250 and approaching a 1,000 nm range. Besides, you might want to learn to fly and operate one if these on the route to a jet.

Quick disclaimer - I'm not a jet pilot. I know many, and I have often been a qualified observer on flight tests of jet aircraft - just don't fly them as a pilot. I do have a commercial licence and IR(R), as these do what I personally need.

Firstly, cutting corners financially may not be a good idea. Flying jet aircraft requires a high level of both technical knowledge and flying ability. Your starting point, which you may as well do in a moderately high performance light aeroplane is to get good - as good as you can be. So start by working with your PPL instructor to ensure that you get the best possible instruction and have really good basic skills, not just "good enough". Mediocre flying skills from the off will persist.

Post PPL, I would suggest converting to something like a Turbo Arrow, and put yourself through a programme of getting yourself to a much higher standard of flying than you needed to pass your PPL. If you're in the UK do the IR(R) en-route as it's a great way of tightening your flying up. Maybe find a good mentor - not to fly with you, but to work with you to ensure your experience as you hour build is tailored to making you as good as possible. Not the default 150 hours of flying around in circles that too many people do.

En route of course ATPL groundschool and exams. It's a level of knowledge you'll need and it's easier to just do the standard package than re-invent the wheel.

If you can, upgrade to the most complex high performance single available to you. It'll be valuable experience that done well early. If you are really on top of the FULL capability of that, consider going multi-engine early - again, the most complex high performance aeroplane resources permit.

When you are at a stage where you have a couple of hundred hours, are at a high skill level as a PPL, rattle through the MEIR.

If this will be purely private pilot, carry on. If you want to go professionally, pause to do a CPL course.

Go do an MCC, as this will aid you. Then think about your jet type rating, having prepared yourself well to do this.



This is an EASA plan. If you want to do it in the USA - which may make good sense if you have more time than money, swap IR(R) for the FA IR, otherwise I'd say basically the same.

Pick training establishments where the instructors have a lot of real world flying experience. Make sure they know your plans and can work with you to achieve them. Above all else, get as good as you can be, as early as you can be - good habits developed early will pay dividends, bad habits developed early may be hard to shift and get in your way indefinitely.

This is very much my thinking, too. I appreciate you taking the time to write this, Genghis. This modular, step-climbing approach is what I take to most challenges, so it makes sense being no exception here. The old adage of "how to eat an elephant" springs to mind.

As to whether I would actually do the En-Route IR or not remains the question. I know this can count toward the ME-IR, but if I know I'm to do that for sure, then it's my thinking to go straight for that, building the proficiency and skill beforehand. I think this will be one of those decisions I make once the journey commences.

It's my intention to film as much as possible and do VLOGS, come the time.

Oh and if you reply to this, happy 13,000th post!

Eek, I need to get out and fly stuff more!

You are welcome. Personally, I would have thought that the IR (R) would be of more value than the EIR , as that majors on approaches, which is the most tough and important bit of instrument flying. If you go the FAA route of course, there's only the one IR, which simplifies the decision making somewhat.

If you have the money to own a light jet, you really don't need to be here asking questions.
That's because training is just a fraction of the price for owning and operating a jet.

Just go over to CTC/CAE and pay for a fully integrated fATPL course.
Then a type rating on your future aircraft.
And you'll be fully qualified to fly your VLJ.

There really is no point in cutting a 10k CPL training when you're about to buy a 3M aircraft.

And while you're at it, look at the TBM. These aircraft are great : same performance as a VLJ for half the fuel consumption.

Money isn't knowledge and this forum is a fine community full of free knowledge.

The TBM-850 is a plane I've had my eye on, also. Jet is a personal challenge, more than anything.

Couldn't agree more on not cutting corners, and it would never be my intention. It's merely interesting to hear most agree that following the commercial steps is the safest and fullest way to go.

Thanks for your advice.

You will be disappointed with a jet. In flying terms they are the easiest things out there (the most complicated is a geared, pressurised piston twin). It's their operation that provides the challenge. Placing your thoughts where the plane is yet to go and having Plans B & C ready for execution if Plan A starts to fall apart. Genghis's route map looks a good route to getting you to where you want to be.

Just to add, the ME IR can now be obtained by the Competency Based IR route, and the training hours from the IRR(IMC) can be credited towards the hours for the CB IR.

Just a thought batteries.

If you have plenty of spare money (lucky person) but there's no particular "practical reason" to fly a jet - just a personal ambition, there are warbirds out there.

If a high performance single or light twin is actually the right aeroplane for what you'll use an aeroplane for most of the time, why not look around at the various opportunities which exist to fly something like a vintage Hawker Hunter? Vastly less practical of course, but if you want to do something exciting and challenging, and have money to scratch that itch, you may get a different and possibly better level of satisfaction from using something like a TBM as your "practical" aeroplane and push yourself on days off in an ex military jet. The latter is totally and utterly impractical for most purposes of course (but then again, so are many business jets in the way they're used if we're honest), but would be tremendously enjoyable.

If you went that route, I think that the only thing I'd add into the suggested workup is a chunk of quality time in something appropriate becoming competent at aerobatics. Mostly irrelevant in a business jet (note I say mostly, not totally - google "upset training", but potentially a whole lot more satisfying.

It can be done. I know of a certain Mustang owner who frequents Shoreham. He has a PPL/IR.

Hi All

If your doing it under an EASA licence you will need either an ATPL or
CPL Mutli-Engine IR with ATPL theory.

the above will be the minimum you need from what I can gather from the latest EASA FCL docs.
https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi...u/Part-FCL.pdf

The details are on page 826

The list of type ratings
https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fi..._List_Acft.pdf
The C510 Mustang is on Page 6 listed as a SP HPA.

As the comments above indicate, getting an MCC would be a good idea. Getting a JOC is not essential and a good Type Rating organisation would be able to give you the same benefits of the JOC on the type rating.

Some additional advice would be to get experience with Garmin G1000 on pistons so that when you come to do the type rating on the Mustang you don't have to learn the avionics as well as speed control, descent planning and all the other additional systems.

Hope that give some specific details, because the rules changed a few years ago.

All the best in your flying!

Go and buy a nice aeroplane to fly, one that excites you and arouses aviation passions, then when you want a jet hire one and find that there are plenty of idiots like me around who make a living flying corporate jets.

You can get a lot of aeroplane for the price of a mustang and hire decent kit when you need to go somewhere, You can turn up when you want (at least thats what my customers think) with extra pax, extra bags, p###ed and anounce that youve changed your mind and that rather than Malaga you fancy Malta and can we please get airborne asap, oh and here's my extra bag and dog to carry, and why aren't we airborne yet?

A long time ago I flew a King Air 200 and a Citation 11SP around Europe single pilot and it was quite hard work with antiquated systems, a modern jet with avionics failures is worse. You may find insurers insisting on min hours, safety pilot and as many qualifications as possible.

A Citation Mustang is P51/Spitfire money new, get a P51/spitfire. Get more from the flying, and probably fly it more. You can get a P51 out of the hangar and ready to fly in a couple of hours, a Citation Mustang is not the sort of steed where you're going to call the airport and say "get my plane out, I fancy flying for an hour."

Use the cash to hire a more comfortable jet, with more ramp presence, take more people, enjoy the trip with a nice hostie bringing you cold champagne and canapes. I was recently doing the walkround at an airport known for the wealth and glitz of it's clientele, on the next stand was a Citation Mustang, and as the Mustang pilots were shoe horning them into their seats I heard the wife complaining that when her husband told her he'd hired a private jet, she thought he meant something like the one I was doing the walk round on (99' long, 99' span, 29' tall) not a airfix toy, and how embarrasing, everyone knowing they were poor!

Forget the jet, go serious warbird, or even serious helicopter.

SND

Just been reading Flyer for July 2017 - very good review of the Cirrus Vision jet - suggest it is not difficult to fly and an easy step up from a 22.

A tiny jet - hoping to see one down here soon.

If I had the dosh I would but a Paris Jet - not so expensive and look serious fun.

If I had someone down here to maintain it I would buy a Provost tomorrow just for the sound.

Just to put an opposing point of view... if you want to fly a jet, go for it.

A friend of mine came to flying quite late in life (40 ish), did his PPL, and told me he wanted a jet. He did CPL, multi, IR all in a very intense fashion (CPL in a long weekend, most of his IR in a coast-to-coast and back journey).

He suddenly came into a lot of money (entirely through his own efforts) and bought a Phenom, which he flies with great satisfaction around the US and occasionally further.

He is very, very happy with his Phenom. Is it a good use of money, or his time? Of course not, he'd be much better off with Netjets and pootling round in his Cirrus at weekends. But he is very happy.

As for warbirds and the like - these are really a much more effective way than a small jet to get yourself dead. Lots of fun, but the fatality rate for amateur pilots in these things is horrifying.

When I got my PPL, the old brown, CAA, ICAO compliant one, I recall my examiner asking if I understood what that allowed me to do. She went on to say that if I had enough money or found someone foolish enough to let me, I could even fly a light, single engine jet, and that to me with a long standing liking for the Folland Gnat. It wouldn't be sensible, she said, but it would be quite legal.

It's funny how different establishments and points-of-view will offer different pre-requisites. It's not well-defined, so I appreciate everyone's comments.

I'm in absolutely no rush so I'm more than happy to study for and sit the ATPL's, for example. In fact, I just purchased all the manuals as to begin warming up at least. (It should be noted that whilst obtaining potential superfluous licenses (see ATPL, CPL, MCC) would inevitably help the insurance premium, I strive to be as knowledgeable as one can be. That's the main reason I want to complete them. That's what counts.

I have been in touch with FlightSafety International and they are currently assisting training routes and ATO's.

Once again, I'm thankful to this community.

I think sir Niall dementia has said it all.

If you want to fly a jet, don't bother with any licences, go and rent one with a savvy pilot and just fly it. Probably cost you £2000-3000/ hour via net jets and no stress. Then try the spitfire, jet provost etc. Face it, going solo in these things is possible but hugely expensive and at the end of the day a first class seat in a jumbo is a far cheaper and safer way of crossing the Atlantic.

If you want a real one arm paper hanging challenge try a multi piston ir or landing a Pitts special or aTiger Moth. That will make you sweat. Any aircraft that has a pilot that has 'got your back' is just too easy to fly. For a real challenge become an instructor.

If I had 'jet money' I would buy a big mcLaren, instruct at weekends, fly at boultbee all week on their spitfire, fly my mates to Vegas on ba business class every other month and still have change for ponies horses and stuff. ( but I'm guessing you probably do all this already??).

I think that perhaps for our friend Batteries, this isn't about cost, ease or efficiency. It's about personal challenge and satisfaction. I get that.

G

It's all about the personal challenge. Absolutely.

I'd love to own a jet, but as the thread title suggests, I want to fly one. Hiring probably is the way I will ultimately go. I've realised since posting that I'm not actually interested in the bare minimum anymore. For me, I just want to put myself through the paces - and bring it on - to fly one. I've never been interested in "just enough"
I've decided that earning a CPL, even if I'm not going to ever fly "commercially" and studying for the ATPL's, even if I won't require their entitlements (it's all TK though) and obtaining an MCC, even though the RHS will only occupy the other half, is all worthwhile. It's the satisfaction of it. Earning those entitlements. Maintaining those ratings. Being constantly good enough to do so. Keeping myself sharp.

I crave that.

Yeah, I get flying warbirds and planes with older avionics is much more of a challenge. Maybe one day I'll be interested in that. For now, I've set my goals.

Thanks for all replies. You've all played a part in steering my decision here.

Go for it man, youve got to where you are by following your ideas, not everyone elses. Its not an outright dangerous or foolish idea, so if you can afford it, go for whatever makes you happy! :D

We've a few jets available in my part of the world, if you feel like travelling. Presently there's the odd L-29 for sale, and a friend of mine was flying one on a PPL ok (VMC only!).

My passion was never jets, I was lucky enough to fly and be 'rated' on a large machine (>5700kg) just with a PPL at the time. Given the answers you've had I'm slightly confused as to what you can do there but it seems you're taking a sensible route to fulfilling your dream, I trust it works out!

FP.

Question
Can you still fly single jet. Provest, gnat l29 on a basic ppl vfr with some sort of difference training

It's a type rating and they have to go onto a UK national licence.


As for the original question. To fly an SPA type rated jet you will need an IR and the Type Rating. This can be done with the IR only exams and the HPA exams or with ATPL exams. The IR would need to be an ME so done on an MEP first.

There is no need for MCC or JOC.

Start small. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAdCt6qgj9k

MD,Bose, it is not a type rating to fly ex-mil jets; it is an `Exemption` from the ANO,by the CAA,as outlined in CAP632.Must have an SEP or MEP,`x` hours,do an `approved course,etc,etc...

Out of interest Batteries, still charged or gone flat?

How is your plan going?

Gaz