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-   -   Instrument Procedures for PPL Holder? (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/589922-instrument-procedures-ppl-holder.html)

pilotjimbo 22nd Jan 2017 15:20

Instrument Procedures for PPL Holder?
 
Hi all,

I am a PPL and Night Rating holder, building hours towards the commencement of the CPL/ME/IR. The goal is Airline Pilot and always has been, and therefore want to utilise my hour building to aid confidence and proficiency for when I start the advanced stages of training.

I fly out of an airfield located in uncontrolled airspace, with an ATZ and LARS service. Fully equipped with ILS & NDB approaches. Whether frowned upon or not, I have used Flight Simulators for years, conducting many Instrument procedures.

Question (assuming VMC conditions, limited to no traffic, an operating LARS Basic/Traffic service):
As a PPL holder, could I request a vectors for an ILS approach, despite not holding a IR or IR(R), purely for the purpose of practise?

I hope this is not a silly question.

Many Thanks :ok:

Gertrude the Wombat 22nd Jan 2017 15:31

You need a "competent observer" (who doesn't have to be a pilot) to look out of the window for other aircraft whilst you're staring at the dials. That I think pretty much deals with the legalities.


But it might be as well to talk to the controller on the phone first to make sure they're happy with what you want to do - they might otherwise, for example, assume that you can do other things which you might not have practiced, such as entering the hold or flying the missed approach procedure (which might be what the controller tells you on the day, not necessarily what's on the plate).


Whether it's actually advisable for you to fly head in looking at the dials, even in VMC, without formal instrument flying instruction I'll leave for others to comment on.


How much use such practice would be - normally you are not just trying to follow the navaid dials, you're also trying to keep the aircraft the right way up - is another matter. It seems to me that without instruction there is a risk that you might get into wrong scanning habits which you'll have to unlearn when you learn instrument flying for real ... but you might be in that position already, of course, with the flight simming.

hobbit1983 22nd Jan 2017 15:49

Practise implies you've already been taught how to do it. You ain't.

Go practise something else more useful. Wait till your IR before doing ILSes....

sapperkenno 22nd Jan 2017 16:35

If you had any sense, you'd get yourself an IR(R) then build some PIC/IFR time while hour-building, practising instrument flying for real, to save yourself some time/money when it comes to doing the IR and you can do the "competency based" version and hopefully pass with fewer training hours than the old 55/45 hour route.
Find someone with a Frasca sim (one at our school, 25/hour) or practice on a PC flightsim if you must. Not really any value in doing what you've suggested.

S-Works 22nd Jan 2017 16:58


As a PPL holder, could I request a vectors for an ILS approach, despite not holding a IR or IR(R), purely for the purpose of practise?
No you can't. Simples....

S-Works 22nd Jan 2017 18:33

You need an IR or an IMCr in order to accept an IFR clearance. Flying IFR procedures whether VMC or not is done under an IFR clearance.

ChickenHouse 22nd Jan 2017 18:44

I am confused. I hear so often a "request simulate ILS approach" or "request simulate flying approach X" from people just doing practise in VMC as a simple PPL holder that I never questioned it. Usually the clearance would contain a "prepare to abort if we tell you", but no more.

Yes, you don't get an official IFR clearance without appropriate rating or being in IR training, but if you kindly ask a tower to fly a procedure in VMC and you don't get in the way of IFR traffic, I would never expect a denial. In contrast, traing gains so much, I cannot imagine a controller would deny.

In fact, we just did exactly that a couple of days ago when training a friend for NFQ, request simulated ILS approach at a big airport in evening airliner traffic and were easily allowed for low approach as VFR traffic and a "remain VMC" clearance.

Wuniform 22nd Jan 2017 19:12

Why would you not be allowed to request i.e an ILS training when VMC and not conflicting with other traffic? Is that something special british?

From time to time I do request simulated ILS or simulated approaches for getting used to the way a GNS430 works and to make my mind up whether to long for IR or not. Sometimes I don't get a clearance, because there is something outside my view conflicting, but most of the time controllers don't have a problem with a VFR flight on their ILS.

S-Works 22nd Jan 2017 19:15

There is no such thing as a simulated IAP, you are either doing it or not. ATC will expect you to be able to comply fully with the approach. Training approaches for currency are normal. I did three on Friday in a light aircraft for currency.

foxmoth 22nd Jan 2017 19:38

Nothing to stop you requesting a 5 mile final and flying the ILS anyway!

India Four Two 22nd Jan 2017 21:48

foxmoth,

I was going to suggest the same thing. :)

When I was doing IR training at Calgary (many years ago), we were not given IFR clearances during practice approaches, which were referred to by ATC as "exercises". We operated under VFR and often were told to break off, in order to accommodate IFR traffic.

The only time we were given IFR clearances was for cross-country flights, which on one occasion, resulted in a expedite request, because jet traffic was catching us up. A full-throttle, flaps-up ILS in a 172 was interesting to say the least, particularly the amount of time it took to slow to Vfe!

KayPam 22nd Jan 2017 22:15


Originally Posted by bose-x (Post 9649940)
You need an IR or an IMCr in order to accept an IFR clearance. Flying IFR procedures whether VMC or not is done under an IFR clearance.

If you fly an IFR procedure and someone asks, just say that you were using the locations of the various beacons, etc.. as visual reference points :)

Big Pistons Forever 22nd Jan 2017 22:18


I am a PPL and Night Rating holder, building hours towards the commencement of the CPL/ME/IR. The goal is Airline Pilot and always has been, and therefore want to utilise my hour building to aid confidence and proficiency for when I start the advanced stages of training.
To be a good IFR pilot you have to be a good VFR pilot first. By that I mean you have mastered flying the aircraft accurately by means of the visual cues out the windshield with the result that aircraft's at the attitude and power setting will generate the desired performance with the aircraft stable and in trim all the time.

I have met very few low hour PPL's that can do that on any kind of a consistent basis. You want to be a great airline pilot master exercises 5 to 11.

Of all the ratings I did the Multi Engine IFR Rating was by far the easiest. When I started my IFR training I has almost 500 hours of ab initio instruction under my belt. The stick and rudder stuff was automatic so that I could concentrate on the IFR procedures and the flight test was a breeze.

But the true value of mastering the foundation stick and rudder skills came 15 years later when a massive electrical failure in one of those "real airplanes" all you SJS guys aspire to meant I had to fly a for real near minimum ILS with only the minimum emergency flight instruments left.

So my advice. Don't be in such a hurry to be a wannabe airline pilot. Practice the basics and strive for handling perfection. Your goal 95 % of the time altitude is + - 20 feet, airspeed is + - 2 knots, ball is a maximum of 1/8 diameter from dead centre. The other 5 % of the time you will correcting to the ideal. When you can do that then worry about practice ILS approaches.......

The pay off ? You will blow away the competition when you get to the CPL/MEIFR training.

KayPam 22nd Jan 2017 22:35

"I have met very few low hour PPL's that can do that on any kind of a consistent basis. You want to be a great airline pilot master exercises 5 to 11. "
Really ? As someone who's very rarely flown with someone else than me at the controls, I do not have any basis to evaluate the veracity of this sentence.

It is however a bit surprising.. The PPL is granted following a skill test !
However if you are an FI you probably are best describing your personal experience in this matter, which is much higher than mine.

Btw : did you have an emergency ILS receiver ?

Your advice is duly noted for the rest of my hour building. At least during the critical phases of flight, since I don't envision myself checking altitude every other second during cruise in class G :p

Big Pistons Forever 22nd Jan 2017 23:43


Btw : did you have an emergency ILS receiver ?
Yes the # 2 which only gave raw data, which was situated a long way away from the small centrally located emergency AI. No magenta line or command bars just pitch and power and good foundation flying skills, you know the ex 5 -9 stuff you rubbish :rolleyes:



Your advice is duly noted for the rest of my hour building. At least during the critical phases of flight, since I don't envision myself checking altitude every other second during cruise in class G

If you have to check your altimeter every other second then the aircraft is not trimmed, which pretty much makes my point about where you should be practicing :hmm:

Otherwise


The goal is Airline Pilot and always has been
might not actually happen...........

Wuniform 23rd Jan 2017 05:58

I would like to add a question, as it appears to have not been specified by the poster. Are you intending to fly ILS and procedures by hand, or are you in the lucky position to have an autopilot fitted, maybe even with a capability for vertical guidance?

Flyingmac 23rd Jan 2017 08:04

I've flown the ILS a number of times at the local airport in perfect VMC. Just to keep my hand in. I've simply asked to route via the beacon. ATC aren't stupid. They OK it and ask me to report at 2DME, at which point they pass me to Tower. There's no charge.:)

foxmoth 23rd Jan 2017 08:50


. You want to be a great airline pilot master exercises 5 to 11.
I would agree with this, when building hours for my instructors ticket an hours trip would include stalling, steep turns, PFL etc. and a few varied circuits at the end, this certainly paid dividends.

BackPacker 23rd Jan 2017 10:48

Back to the basic question, yes, you can ask for vectors for the ILS - assuming the ATC unit is equipped to provide vectors. I do this a lot for practice, and sometimes even to make my arrival a bit more expedient. I always make sure I throw the word "practice" in there, and I always have the regular visual approach as plan B.

The remark about an extra pair of eyes is a good one. Formally you're still VFR so responsible for your own lookout. Also, it's your responsibility to stay in VMC so you might not want to do this in marginal conditions.

Whether it's wise to learn IFR flying and IFR procedures on your own, without an instructor to teach you how to do this properly, well, I'll leave that to the experts.

KayPam 23rd Jan 2017 11:21


Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever (Post 9650194)
If you have to check your altimeter every other second then the aircraft is not trimmed, which pretty much makes my point about where you should be practicing :hmm:
.

Now i'm not sure what "every other second" means.. I meant something like every 30 seconds.
You can fly in unstable wheather, or in small orographic waves, you can fly through slightly colder air, your aircraft will also burn fuel, etc.. and I've noticed , in my experience, that if you don't look at your altitude regularly (at least once a minute), your aircraft is going to climb up/down in a random fashion, even if you're perfectly trimmed to begin with.
You can add altimeter lag and VSI imprecision to complicate the equation.

That's where I will get back to the topic.

You could practise IFR procedures.. if you had an aircraft properly equipped for IFR.
With imprecise instruments, what can you do ?
The aircraft I fly do not have DMEs, they have a VOR, one or none ADF. The gyrocompass has a precision of about 10.. So you could try to fly IFR approaches in VMC with that but you're gonna have a bad time.


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