Parachutists outside drop zones?
Hello
On a recent hour building flight I had a somewhat nasty surprise at 3000 feet. After a zone transit N-S through the Brize CTR as an exercise, I turned north-east and at about nine miles east of Oxford Kidlington AD I look up and see a parachutist very close and off to my 1 o'clock. It's very difficult to judge (and recall) the exact distance, but I think it was in the region of about 200m as he/she was descending through my level. I'd deliberately spent ages planning my route to steer well clear of any drop zones (getting the transit through Brize CTR made that easier on this particular route), and double checked my map and local features to ensure I hadn't drifted unexpectedly into a drop zone. I also called Brize Zone who I was still in touch with and asked them for a fix to make sure I hadn't made an error in nav. Further, I checked my Skydemon GPS log when I got home to see if an infringement had taken place, and the closest I'd gotten to a drop zone was about 4 miles (Weston-on-the-Green). So the parachutist was well outside of any notified drop zones (either established or by NOTAM). I've tried looking online in official sources (UK AIP) and through my air law PPL and ATPL manuals, but can't find anything that states whether or not drops are permitted outside of designated drop zones. I appreciate it's Class G and basically a free-for-all (and that I should keep a correspondingly appropriate lookout), but didn't realise this also applied to people jumping out of aeroplanes. Any ideas? |
What were the upper winds in relation to Weston? I've had a similar experience at least five miles from a drop zone. I was at six thousand. Upwind.
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Are you sure you did not fly through the Hinton DZ?.....
We don't drop at Weston at a weekend. Hinton would be the nearest at about 4 miles away. Post your SkyDemon log and we can check. Drops outside of DZ are only permitted for demos and they need specifc permission. So either there was a demo or you bust a DZ or someone just bailed out. Five miles from a DZ would require winds way beyond the limits for jumping. Most we would ever drop upwind of the spot would be about 3nm and that would be in upper winds blowing a hooly at 15k. 5 miles at 6k would be a land off. |
Wind in my case at 6K was in excess of 30 knots. Rather more at 12k.
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Looked again at the log - apologies, it seems more like 3 miles than 4. Still well outside the DZ though:
http://i.imgur.com/OUWhOjg.png This was a weekday by the way. |
Wind in my case at 6K was in excess of 30 knots. Rather more at 12k. |
Maybe a paraglider.
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Crazyscientist, if you give us the time date and location I will check our logs. But as far as the DZ at weston is concerned no drops are permitted outside of D216 regardless of the wind. Its protected military airspace that is coordinated with Swanick as its bang in the middle of an airway.
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Maybe a paraglider. |
Not so sure myself now - I was shocked by the sudden appearance of the thing in my field of view and that, combined with the concern that I had potentially drifted into a DZ, meant I didn't spend too long looking at it once I was satisfied it wasn't a collision risk. So it could have been a paraglider, apologies for wasting your time if that is indeed what it was.
In any case, the time was 14:42z on 11/11/2016 and I think the location was just east of the bird sanctuary on that chart screenshot I posted, close to the M40. |
Hey Crazy - don't think for a second your post is wasting anyone's time - these stories all great learning for all of us!
I remember a very similar thing happening to me the first time I saw, what I thought was an RAF Tornado coming towards me way in the distance - it turned out to be a glider! |
Just imagine what they were thinking! ;)
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I have checked the logs and there was no para activity at Weston at all on that day. In fact none this month as they are all in Cyprus.
So I would assume as per the earlier suggestion that what you saw was a paraglider. |
Originally Posted by bose-x
(Post 9577906)
I have checked the logs and there was no para activity at Weston at all on that day. In fact none this month as they are all in Cyprus.
So I would assume as per the earlier suggestion that what you saw was a paraglider. Could EGD129 not be Notamed as deactivated when there is no para activity. EGD129 creates a choke point with aircraft transiting north/south trying to avoid Bicester gliding site. |
I was surprised by several parachutists opening their 'chutes around me when I was flying North over Lancaster/Lancaster University earlier this year (took some photos).
They were about my level (circa 3,000 feet QNH) and probably operating out of Cockerham. The wind was easterly, so upwind would have been in the Lancaster/Thurnham area. That was the only time in all my years of flying that I have encountered anything like that - suddenly in my vicinity, but obviously unseen until they opened their parachutes. They were some way away (maybe a few hundred metres), so no immediate danger of a conflict. |
Could EGD129 not be Notamed as deactivated when there is no para activity. EGD129 creates a choke point with aircraft transiting north/south trying to avoid Bicester gliding site. |
There are ongoing discussions about that......
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Thanks for taking the time to look into it for me bose-x. It does seem like it was just a paraglider, but for sure some of the responses I've seen in this thread are eye-openers. I think it's very easy to get lulled into a false sense of security when flying clear of DZs - feeling that as long as you stay outside of the magic circle printed on the map then you will be guaranteed safety.
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As a former jumper and current pilot I always have a very healthy respect for the airspace around and adjacent to drop zones. If i'm flying in the vicinity I will usually try to get on the frequency so I can at least hear if they are airborne, when they are dropping etc.
I've seen quite a few 'interesting' things from both perspectives……once on an extended jump run in a large Russian helicopter, ramp comes down and red light goes on, whereupon two visiting jumpers just rush past those of us standing on the ramp and hurl themselves out ( jump master was spotting from the front door) the rest of us look at each other with mild amusement then wait for the green light before proceeding. The two landed miles from the DZ and were later invited for a tea and no biscuits discussion with the Chief Instructor. On another occasion out of a sky van, long jump run during which most of the RW formations exited. Then a freefly group swing two guys from the bar underneath the ramp whilst their mates wait inside……light goes red and plane starts a gentle turn, the guys inside look at each other wondering what to do, i.e. mates dangling beneath the plane waiting for someone to jump out. Eventually one of them jumps and they all land off the DZ ! Amusing maybe, but it occasionally happens as does a premature deployment in the door ( nasty for all concerned) so it is possible to find canopies deployed near the or even outside the DZ, although happy to say it doesn't happen often. In most cases high openings such as for Canopy Relative Work and even bad spots are confined to the airspace within the DZ. Those well outside are likely to be paragliders or paramoters. But it pays to keep well clear of active jump sites. |
I live close to the area and have seen a paramotor on a few occasions swanning around, normally west of Brill on the road to Bicester. 1st time was at approx. 2 feet off the ground having to add power to hop over hedges. Later sightings were at about 300'. If was him/her, they're certainly getting braver with the height.
in the region of about 200m as he/she was descending through my level. |
There may not be much chance of meeting a parachutist outside the designated drop zone but there can be a real possibility of meeting the aircraft that dropped them. I have experienced two close encounters with these as they often seem hell bent on getting back on the ground to pick up the next lot.
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Time is money. We are not sightseeing for a burger.......
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A paramotor also flew through the Weston DZ on Sunday afternoon while glider winch launching was taking place. It was about 500m to the north of the airfield at no more than 700 feet.
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Currently no drop activity at weekends so not really an issue.
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I have experienced two close encounters with these as they often seem hell bent on getting back on the ground to pick up the next lot. Or, at DZs popular for FS team training, the same lot! |
I've encountered paramotors at 2,000' so very likely to meet one in the cruise. When we finally get mandated ADS-B I think they should ALL be made to carry one.
TOO |
Currently no drop activity at weekends so not really an issue.
No, but they could encounter a glider or a winch cable - 6mm steel cable doing 60mph + will cut through a paraglider very well..... |
Thanks for this salutary tale for all flyers. Have you filed an airprox?
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Have you filed an airprox? This is just for me, but others may have had "better" experiences. |
My experience was better. Very happy with Airprox guys. It was with a paraglider, over the Glencoe hills.
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We have regular airproxes up this way. Usually acknowledged with a mutual wing wag. Or rude gesture.
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If talking to Oxford or Brize GA aircraft can be routed through D129 when not activated as both have Letters Of Agreement that allow that. When gliding at Weston is taking place you can be routed through above the cable launch height with a general warning of levels gliding up to (generally cloud base).
D129 DA status for parachuting at Weston is believed to be a legacy throwback to when they used to Barrage Balloon jump; it is the only drop zone in uk with dedicated DA status. Hope this helps. |
Let's say this is an imagined story to protect all the guilty parties .... in the story it happened quite some decades ago.
Two ship civil jump from a near major city regional DZ. Pilots one ex-, one current airline chaps. Wx plenty of cloud at all levels .. more or less VMC at any level ... but not much in the way of glimpses of the ground. Wind fairly strongish away from the city area. Dropping from within CTA with a clearance along the lines of "remain within 3 nm of XYZ DZ". Level around 12,000 ft. Two ship in battle form. One had an ADF with two only basic instrumentation. (The ADF, with no local aids, proved pretty useless for keeping position reference the ground but the pilot, being an old airline checkie, knew it all). They spent the next 30-40 minutes going around in a nominal holding pattern trying to get enough of a ground sighting for the jumpmaster to give the nod. ATC folks, on radar, must have been shaking their heads and chuckling away .. fortunately the airspace the two ship was in was not near any busy activity .. the air routes were around 15-20 nm, upwind and closer to the city area. To cut a long story short, a gap came up, the jumpmaster became confident of his spotting, two moved into close form, and the bunch departed. Both ships separated as briefed and descended through the cloud cover .... you guessed it ... popped out visual with NO idea where they were .. quick check of the chart and they worked out they were around 40 nm SE of the DZ ... once the jumpers got on the ground and found a phone a pickup was organised and they got back to the DZ several hours after the jump. Was is silly ? .. of course it was. Messages to take away .. (a) if you are DZ local transit flying in strong wind and significant cloud cover conditions (especially), make sure you have comms with the DZ/ drop planes to organise self separation. It isn't all that hard to do your homework to make sure you have phone and frequency info. (b) forget sighting the jumpers in freefall ... and be very wary of the jump plane on descent .. max rate and, generally, reasonable IAS. (b) playing I/F with no aids and no useful ground contact is not real bright in the overall scheme of things .. and, having done my good share of glider towing as well as jump flying ... the same comments apply if you are transit through/near gliding activity. |
We are foot perfect these days with GPS but I know of many old school horror stories of massive misses!
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I recall a story of Father Christmas being dropped into a school Christmas party from a Puma helicopter. The jump master was certain the aircraft was in the correct place but the pilot not so. However, the drop went ahead.
Cue one very sweaty, heavy breathing and partly undressed Santa arriving at the party late after running a couple of miles to the school..... |
Sorry for not responding to this sooner, I hadn't noticed the thread had been updated.
I haven't filed an airprox report - I am concerned that my memory of the details is somewhat sketchy due to my being focused on whether or not I had drifted and infringed into a DZ. I do now have a GPS receiver and SkyDemon to use with my smartphone, but at the moment I am only using it as a post-flight debrief tool (to compare my actual track with the one I planned and think I've flown) and for emergencies when I am absolutely desperately lost. I have it running but don't normally refer to in flight. Even in cases where I am uncertain of position I'd rather get into the habit of putting the airplane into an orbit and getting a fix from nav-aids, asking ATC for help etc. I am hour building to prepare for CPL and I'm assuming that on the skills test the examiner won't accept my Android device as evidence I know how to employ the proper lost procedure! Many thanks to those who have shared details of previous incidents involving drops, it's definitely eye-opening. |
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