Contacting the CAA
 

Hi All,

Any tips on getting through to the people at the CAA. I keep getting the 'we are aware you're waiting, and one of our advisors will be with you soon', and then immediately afterwards 'regrettably, we're unable to take your call at this time'

This is ridiculous, why can't they just put you into a queue?

Thanks

A bloke on the Flyer forums says this (post from last Friday):

I don't know where he got the information from.

Let DVLA handle it, or tell the CAA how to manage their throughput, they work with 10's of thousands not a few 10's.:ugh:

How ridiculous is that? What if my enquiry is nothing to do with a license application? They really are just a bunch of clowns

Update:

I can get through to their Medical and Exams department, but not the one I really need.

They are not there to answer industry questions any more, if its about flying ask an ATO, and if its about medical talk to an AME. Even if they answered the phone, they probably wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about!
My recent experience of the DVLA was no better!

FWIW I phoned the FCL guys this morning and got accepted into the queue. Was 7th and got answered in about 10 minutes.

But I have recently experienced phoning around 7 times over three days and getting the 'regretfully' message... Must have been lucky this morning.

I think this idea comes from the top (in other words, the CEO) and his brief is obviously to maximise income and reduce expenditure.


They are moving (and have been for a few years) towards one centralised CAA so a single number for contact where you have to hold like you do for BT or any one of the high street banks seems inevitable. They are a regulator and, as an organisation, have no reason to offer any level of customer service. At least they haven’t moved to an Indian call centre like BT and even Pratt and Whitney.


I have been dealing with the LAA recently and, to be honest, the CAA are a little better than the LAA when it comes to delays and for the same reasons, too few staff with knowledge.


Where that leaves the regulation of UK Aviation with Brexit is anyone’s guess. The CAA has been on a diet to meet it’s lean and mean role under EASA. It will take years to replace the skills lost from the CAA if Brexit means leaving EASA also so I would expect worse is yet to come at the CAA.

Contact the CAA? You've got to be having a laugh...

Even if you do manage to get through they won't have a clue what your on about and will transfer you you time and time again.

I called licensing today - was on hold for a short while, 3rd in the queue apparently, got connected, got told I needed to wait at least another week and that they "probably had" everything they needed and my email (14 days ago) with additional notes on my additional rating restriction removals "probably will get merged with the application sometime", and hung up - total call time 11mins.

Doesn't fill me with much hope...

When I got my PPL, it took them 3 months and lots of phone calls. They even called me, left a message telling me go phone back on a number...that later transpired was only accessible internally!

Too many politicians...what do I get for £250?!

Still nothing from the CAA... thats week 4 gone, and the first lie from them (that it would be a week... a week ago)...

An interesting twitter exchange brought no joy either

Called them today, the switchboard got fed up with me repeatedly calling back when the automation told me they were too busy to even put me in a queue and hung up...

Considering a Freedom of Information request just to see how big the queue is...

www.whatdotheyknow.com is great for FoI requests.
Expect they would take 6 months to process though...despite the legal obligation! :mad:

submitted: CAA Complaint

Submitted: Freedom of Information


Maybe if more people raise official complaints on the delays it might fall on some not so deaf ears... Cant believe Pilot/Flyer and other magazines have not jumped on it for a story and attempted to get the CAA to explain themselves...

... maybe the DailyMail type rag might....


.... but then who cares, pilots are two a penny at the moment...

I raised a complaint straight to the CEO via email on Thursday last week. (Regarding time taken to process my license).

Got my license today after intervention from his team.

I'm still operating on an Irish licence following my retirement from a well known budget carrier.

For comparison I recently sent documentation and logbook to the Irish Aviation Authority to have my FI Rating revalidation to be entered on my licence.

The turnaround time from the UK (having been sent by normal surface mail) to receive a new rating page and logbook back from the IAA was 12 days.

It was posted from UK on the Thursday and a very helpful person called me from the IAA the following Tuesday asking for card details for the required 145 Euros.

If the IAA can do it then why not the CAA?

So after my complaint and FOI request overnight, I get this email at 10:31am


I guess I was just impatient... It was delivered today that would be 22 working days for initial issue CPL - which I guess is not too bad... And they got my ratings right :)

Lucky you! I was 45 working days for initial ppl...

Because the issues at the CAA are way bigger than turnaround time on licences. Just look at their documentation it's just utter chaos and beyond pure resourcing what of the quality of the resources? This situation didn't just happen. Question really needs asking is who regulates the regulator?

Well I received my FOI request reply today.

Shocking reading.

I don't feel comfortable sharing it verbatim online as I don't feel thats fair to the CAA (although its public data really, available to all), if you ask I can share privately.

Some headline figures for you...

Apparently 18 staff work full time (+/- staff leave and/or other absence) on applications, the longest takes 8 weeks at the peek in October, and there were 1392 applications to process on w/e 23 Oct - (225 initial issue professional, 853 private, and 284 admin changes) - gulp... (these figures are less today with 851 licenses still in the queue w/e 20th november)

What is interesting is that the net reduction in the queue in October was only 100 a week (incoming - processed = net reduction).

With 18 staff working a 5 day week, they were only able to clear 101 applications that week. Thats 1.1 per staff member per day... draw from that what you will...

At the end of that week there were still 1392 applications to process...

Another more recent example, week ending 20th November they received 239 new applications, and only processed 267. Thats a net reduction in the queue of only 28, leaving 851 in the queue at the end of that week.

28 applications between 18 staff members is 0.3 applications processed per day per staff member processed. again draw from that what you will...

The usual excuse of under staffing, and lots of applications over the summer being the excuse that it takes our regulator 8 weeks to issue a license...

They have sent you misleading data because no doubt that doesn't give you a clear picture of the processing of same day items.

Clearly the people who are physically turning up at the CAA on a daily basis and paying [what is it £80+ a go for someone to tick some boxes and press print] are getting service and those in the inbox are getting ignored. If you think about it on that basis the poor service is a cash cow.

In the end its the CAA or nothing, poor service encourages more people to turn up and spend £80 and ultimately what are you going to do? Ask for data from a FOI request, which you then want to protect them from anyway!! I'm sure the executive must be quaking.

Which would be a offence to do...

This data is NOT about same day applications - it was specifically asked in the FOI Request fro the QUEUED applications. I did not ask for, and therefore did not receive information on the processing of same day, turn up and wait, license rating issues or license changes.

Rubbish. Initial License Issue applications cannot be issued by turning up in person. Period.

Its public data - if you have a question feel free to lodge your own FOI Request and you will get your own reply, that is the whole purpose of having a process.

Im not protecting anyone other than the fact that the CAA responded to my Complaint and my FOI as a single item (which they should not have done, they should have been treated separately under law) and so there is quite a bit of personal information in their single reply to me.

Its nothing to do with making the CAA quake. Its about being open and honest with the CAA Customers (US!) on why INITIAL ISSUE professional licenses this year took EIGHT weeks to issue, Private Licenses too on average longer than ever...

At the time of recording the FOI and the Complaint I had a license issue deadline, which I had communicated to the CAA in writing several times, and was waiting for my license to be returned to leave the country. They had not once acknowledged this and so I wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with - as it happens, it was in a queue of 1392 applications...

In response to my complaint, which was specific and detailed in nature, it was upheld and I received an apology.

It seems they are doing what they can, and yet still failing to provide a timely service ... year after year.

I assume then, IMC/IR(R) cannot be issued on the spot then?

IRR(A) is a Rating, not a license. So yes, it can be added using the ‘Same Day’ counter service

FAQ: https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...unter-service/

Surely the pipeline should be:

0. Before anything 1 staff takes your money
1. Staff 2 checks licence requirements against provided evidence (checklist).
2. Staff 2 presses print (for licence + envelope)
3. Staff 2 signs licence
4. Staff 2 puts items in envelope
5. Staff 2 sticks on label
6. Staff 2 puts envelope in the trolley
7. Staff 3 takes trolley to postman waiting at the door to pick it all up

Single licence application should take a whole.... 10-15 minutes from start to finish (applications for ratings to be applied: ie night probably take less than 5minutes in all). Assuming that the average is 40 hours per week in most jobs (i think the CAA is different though); That would otherwise be 160 licences per week per person working. Hence if you 18 people working on applications alone that'd be: 2,880 licences per week. (if an NHS GP can find out what's wrong with you, give you advice, write in the notes, print & sign a prescription in 10minutes or less - I don't think its impossible!)

That means that they could clear the backlog in half a week!

OK, let's be fair - they only work 6 hours per day, out of the 18, 2 are on leave, 1 is ill, so only 15 are in the office, 2 are managers who oversee their colleagues and don't help in a time of need, 1 is a phone operator answering people who keep asking "where is my licence?", 1 person is in charge of taking the money and 1 person is the admin support staff (ie making tea / putting packages in the mail... etc...). Meaning you end up with only 10 people actually dealing with the paperwork. If it takes them 20 minutes for each application, that's 90 applications per week per staff. Or a total of 900 applications processed per week. In other words, clear the backlog + new arrivals in two weeks, and then only need to process less than 30 applications per week (or estimated 10 hours per week) just to make sure that they're clearing the backlog. Also means that they can work 2 days a week and still earn the same money and we don't have to wait for our licences!

I bet they process the licences on the day they arrive, and then put them on a pile "to be sent on stated date" and then the piles only get sent several weeks after they've been processed!

Ah, I looked at the link before but I read "class rating" as type rating. In that case I will take my paperwork down in person...

Here is a screenshot from the FOI of the generic process from the horses mouth so to speak...

https://d3vv6lp55qjaqc.cloudfront.ne...729&v=d1c47ad1

Information Notice 2016/101 issued 25 November might alleviate these problems, at least within the UK.

Too blooming late for me. Passed CRI on the 19th and posted the application on the 21st. Told by the CAA it will take up to 20 working days. C'est La Vie.

Sent my license alteration stuff in on 10th Oct. Got it back on 22 Nov, so assuming a day each side for post that's 31 working days. I was told 45 working days so maybe things are picking up.

Thanks GBEBZ,
Looks like I wasn't toooo far off! Although I'd expect they could definitely clear the backlog (if they wanted) very easily... Shame that people don't strive for improvement.

ak7274,
Did you enjoy doing the rating? I've been tinkering with the idea of doing the course!

thing
That's still 31 working days (6 weeks and 1 day) for a bit of paper to confirm that you're able to do what you've been assessed to do (and passed). I find that a little concerning!

Maoraigh1
That looks like something that should have been around decades ago! Although a little concerning that its only valid for 8 weeks... What happens next year when the waiting times will be 16 weeks?

Alex,
I have to say that I didn't particularly enjoy the course, but that was all down to me. I just wasn't prepared for it at all. I didn't study as much as I should have done. The course is no cake walk, so if you do apply for the course be prepared to study all the pre course material. There is a lot of content to cram in, just in a week, so homework is dished out like sweets.
Perhaps because I haven't been in any sort of training environment for a lot more years than I care to remember, It needed more force to hammer things home.

The instruction I received from Cookie was brilliant and he was very patient. The guys at CFT Tatenhill were very supportive and thanks to Craig for passing me.

I am looking forward to using the rating when it arrives, but maybe the wait will allow me to gather my thoughts prior to using it.

Glad I did it though.

So, this Information Notice IN–2016/101 essentially says that if I print out form SG1100, I am allowed to exercise the privileges of my license (which I passed skills test 8/11, RT on the 22/11, sent off for on the 24/11 and CAA received on the 25/11) before it actually gets issued, providing it's signed by an examiner? Or have I read that incorrectly?

Thank you

Very interesting with the staff numbers etc, GBEBZ, would you mind PMing me a copy of the response, as I'd love to have a read to better understand what's going on?

Thanks again

tobster911, no you may not! RTFM!!

Sorry my apologies - I guess the simple answer to your comment:-

They were just doing other things.... and hence my comment around £80. Forget initial application or addition of rating because the thinking [sorry assumption that some to all of the 18 FTE are handling both initial applications and changes to existing licenses] is that its all the same people doing the varied task and so those seeking addition of a rating are motivated to turn up and the CAA motivated to take the £80..

Because they don't care and why should they.. You can't choose an alternative to the CAA so what are you going to do? You send in an FOI and what has changed? Jack. Lets face it when the regulator can't even get its act together with its own documentation the bar is set very low.

Great they say sorry.... but as you say...

Suggests they need a change of people from the low quality currently employed.

I suspect it's less about the people and more about a rigid and unyielding process.

If the checking was farmed out as a formal delegation to the Examiners or Training Organisations, and the CAA then accepted that, there'd be less of a bottleneck. Of course, that would necessitate a simple and unambiguous process for the Examiners to follow, and as we are often told the paperwork is hardly that at the moment.

Can offer you some confusion from the NPPL (M) world!

The BMAA processes all initial licence issues on behalf of the CAA, apart from cheque cashing/database entry/licence printing/posting.

On their website, they provide a Where's My Paperwork page.

If no problems with the application, the target is two working days - although you can see that they very often do it in one working day!

British Microlight Aircraft Association,NPPL Applications,Sub-Page

Of course, they then email the CAA the details and the new pilot has to wait over a month for the CAA just to print out and post the licence!

As I understand it, the CAA then visit the BMAA a few times a year and pull some of the applications out of the file and audit them to make sure the BMAA are getting it correct. They aren't checking each and every one before issue. So the CAA literally does just have to print and post.

As for time, it does take me a few hours to make sure a student's application form is filled in and correct, and scan everything in case it is lost in the post, and file student records/form copy/cert ID copy etc in the records storage. But then I am not a professional paper pusher.

Again, for information, the BMAA checklist is here:

http://www.bmaa.org/files/microlight..._issue_6.1.pdf

I send a completed copy of it in with my student's applications, although I am sure they then redo it to make certain all is OK.

It may only be a microlight licence, but it is a lot to the people who achieve it.

The BMAA works very hard to make sure the paperwork is completed speedily for its members (both licences and aircraft permit renewals) since that is often the only contact it has with its members and it is determined to create a good impression. It has a monopoly.

The CAA seems determined to confirm to newly-qualified pilots what all that the old soaks say about them in the clubhouse! It also has a monopoly!

BMAA gets £102 for its work (including posting logbooks back to people), the CAA gets £50.

Perhaps what people would focus on is "benchmarking", both on service price and service delivery.

Perhaps the CAA should, by law, be given "performance indicators" linked to other document providers, such as passports and driving licences, who also suffer from peak surges.

The cost of a NPPL(M) for instance, at £152, is significantly more than an initial driving licence or a passport!

And takes significantly longer!

...then you haven't tried HMRC.

TOO

Actually I did yesterday. I used the new Live Chat feature on their website, I was number 3 in the queue, waited 17 second to be be connected to an agent, told them what I wanted (a printed SA302) and after telling them my credentials (dob/address/ni number) was told it was in the post.

Time Taken: 3 mins including typing and waiting time.

Cost: Zero....

I have just sent the CAA an AFTN free text message through AFPEx as they will not answer the phone, answer emails or letters. I wonder if they will reply.

keeflyer,


"It fills me with dread whenever I have to deal with them, which unfortunately will be for my night rating shortly."

You might be in luck, because..........................................


The CAA like keeping people in the dark!

Boom! Boom!