Hours eligibility for PPL
 

Hi all,

I've been (very, very slowly) studying for a PPL, but I finally have an opportunity to commit and finish the course - I think.

I'm trying to find some more information about any restrictions on the hours that I must complete before I can take the final test. Obviously the important thing is that I have the requisite skills, and I can't take the test until I'm ready, but I'm reasonably confident I don't need 45 hours from now (I just returned from my first flight in six years and I still have some competency).

I have:
- ~10 hours in a Robinson R-22 in 2002/2003 - clearly these are irrelevant
- ~9 hours in a Grob 115-E in 2004 - relevant, but a very long time ago
- ~4 hours in a Piper PA28 Warrior 161 in 2010 - relevant, but quite a long time ago

My questions are:
- do the hours have to be within a certain time period?
- do the hours have to be logged in the qualifying aircraft or can they be across multiple types?
- is there a website I haven't found that explains all this?

Thanks in advance for any help,
Jimbo

You have to do your training in an ATO under Part.FCL anyways, so they will give you the details and will justify from your history.

AFAIK there is no time limit for hours, but you appear to be not the youngest. So, I seriously doubt you will pass all requirements under current EU regulations with under 45 hours. But this also depends on your ATO gathering of facts.

- No. But they do need to be recognised by the ATO which will end up putting you forward for test and signing your certificate of completion. In practice, if you have the logbook and they have been signed by the FI at the time and/or that FI is still around to do so now, they may be recognised, but see below.
- No. But same caveat.
- Yes. It's all in the various rules and regulations available on the CAA website ;) but in reality you're better of going to talk to your new ATO.

As mentioned by Chickenhouse, the 13 hours (all pre-solo, I would guess?) should mean that you need fewer hours from now on to arrive at the acceptable standard, but it is unlikely that they will mean that you will only require 32 hours from now on; very few pilots complete the course in 45 hours on the dot.

B.

Very few people pass in the minimum number of hours, although definitely possible, I have only come across about 2 or 3 that passed with less than 50 hours.

If you meant 45 hours FROM NOW, as in excluding the previous hours - solely depend on your personal aptitude and dedication of time and effort, in addition to frequency of lessons (with enough reflexion time).

The blocks of time you state seem to be relatively small chunks, and although you may very well be able to fly straight and level, climb and descend, even perhaps make rate 1 turns in both directions, I assume that you did not go solo / did much circuit (or radio) training (which for most, seems to be the first major hurdle.). So that is definitely something to bear in mind.

Your instructor will be able to let you know how you are progressing, and how you are coming along after a few lessons, and if he / she is very experienced, may even be able to shed some more light on timings! But take these with a pinch of salt, no two students are the same, and hence no two students struggle on the same parts of the syllabus in the same way! :-)

Keep us posted on your flying adventures!!!
Alex

Hey B!

You beat me to it! ;-)
Sorry for saying the same thing about the hours. But it is very important to know.

Best.
Alex

I had this issue when applying for my PPL this year:

" When assessing your logbook to confirm the relevant flight training hours have been met we have found you are claiming flight training conducted prior to September 2012. Although your supervised solo, solo cross-country and dual instruction flying experience after September 2012 is sufficient, unfortunately, we have only been able to identify 42hrs 55mins of total flying time out of the required 45 hours.

"

So any of your hours before September 2012 cannot be counted.

It went on;

"

In respect of the training conducted for your PPL, the CAA applied the Aircrew Regulation with effect from 17 September 2012, so all training undertaken prior to this date was conducted under the relevant JARs. As your PPL skill test was conducted after 8th April 2016 we are unable to automatically take into account any training that was conducted under JAR towards any part of the hours requirement needed for the issue of the PPL. Please refer to Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended (the Aircrew Regulation)

Below is information relating to the acceptance of flight time conducted prior to the implementation of the regulation.

Article 9, paragraph 1 of Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended (the Aircrew Regulation) states: ‘In respect of issuing Part-FCL licences in accordance with Annex I, training commenced prior to the application of this Regulation in accordance with the Joint Aviation Authorities requirements and procedures, under the regulatory oversight of a Member State recommended for mutual recognition within the Joint Aviation Authorities’ system in relation to the relevant JAR, shall be given full credit provided that the training and testing were completed by 8 April 2016 at the latest.

The CAA applied the Aircrew Regulation with effect from 17 September 2012, so all training undertaken prior to this date was conducted under the relevant JARs.

To be able to consider processing your application on the basis of experience gained before 17 September 2012, we would have to put in place an exemption against Commission Regulation (EC) 1178/2011 (the Aircrew Regulation). For the CAA to grant such an exemption you will need to make application on formSRG2137 to [email protected]; there is a fee for this service of £53.00.

"

So Brad...

It is saying that is CAN be counted - but for an additional fee of £53.00. Funny how the CAA works isn't it?!?

Correct, however they said there would likely be 'clauses' if they were counted such as additional training and a second skills test... so you may well pay the 50 quid to find they make you do extra instruction anyway...

That's such a waste of time and money!!!

But Brad - congratulations of being one of the few to complete the PPL in less than 45 hours, and maybe the ONLY one to have passed a full GFT at less than the 45 hours minimum!

I presume that it has all been sorted out now and that you just went for a jolly down somewhere with an instructor to make up the hours in a single day? Does the GFT have to be done AFTER the 45 hours? I assumed that you needed 45 hours including the GFT minimum, so surely it was as futile as going for a jolly, and re-sending the application.

(Mind you - you'd have lost part of the first application fee....!)

Let me add a slight variation on the above, based on my experience this year.

I had 12 and a bit hours from 2004/2005 from when I started learning.
I then had an 11 year break, before deciding to just get on with it this year and get the licence.

I'd pretty much finished the syllabus by 50 hours (the 12 hours from a decade ago, plus 38 since April) but I'd read about the need for this exemption on a couple of forums (including this one) - so I sent off for it, and paid my £53 a couple of weeks before the test.

The exemption was granted and I took (and passed) the skills test at the end of August, passing with 52 hours (including the 12 from all those years ago).

The exemption is valid for 2 months and takes 10 working days to be processed, so only apply when you're ready for the test.

Alex - Technically I had over 45 hours;

3 hours pre September 2012 (now not eligible)

42.55 hours post September 2012 (since feb 16 when I restarted) these were the only eligible hours and included my skills test.

I made it up to over 45 hours post sep 12 by going on a few bimbles and the club sent off the training records. Unbelievably they then said that you cannot include the skills test in the making up of your 45 hours AND that because I had made some hours up after my skills test they were in effect in the wrong order... You need 45 full hours before taking the skills test, so made me retake it.

Ah yes, the April deadline for older hours was spoken about at the time. Apologies for misleading post. :(

As for the exemption, did you get the impression that this was a 'given' and just subject to going through the exercise and paying the fee or did you have to actually justify it on special grounds and could it have been turned down, you think?

B.

The form asks for justification... The lady at the CAA advised me to make the hours up and retake the test as it was "Highly likely" that further training and another skills test would be advised anyway.

You can't think about this in rational terms... applying for the exemption and it being accepted could well have led to a clause on the exemption requiring another skills test, exactly what I would have been trying to avoid by applying for the exemption... Pointless in my case.

Although it sounds like Nick has had a different experience to me with this.

Not particularly unbelievable, as it's what's clearly written in CAP 804.

Under JAR, you only needs 45 hours to apply for the licence, ie it could include the test.

Under EASA you need to complete a course, the minimum for which is 45 hours, before the ATO presents you for test, ie the test cannot be included in the hours.

An invalid test, the ATO should have known better.

Nick - I still think its absolutely incredulous to charge £53 - in order to get "an exemption" whilst in reality - these are flying hours!

The differences between JAR and EASA syllabi is to be considered, however, surely the issue of the EASA licence is limited to the requirements under EASA syllabus. Why should it matter that the hours were done within any particular time period? Or under any particular syllabus? Providing that all the parts of the syllabus for which the licence application is for: are ticked; That the pilot is competent enough to pass the RT exam, a full skills test, and have passed all theoretical knowledge exams under the EASA - why on earth should it matter?!?

(above rant - probably far too much common sense for any of these corporations to understand)

Brad - I did understand that, but as these previous hours are not to be counted, I took the remaining totals! ;-)

Also - although this is a little shambolic on the paper front... Perhaps we can think about it as further training? A good pilot never stops learning, and a few hours more training can do nothing but improve your already acquired skills! :-)

Yes of course! No worries and all sorted now anyway, so just did extra flying I would have done anyway... But for the OP I think there will be a fair amount of complication with his application, unfortunately.

It does seem though from what Nick said that the exemption may not have additional clauses on it if applied for before the skills test (this may have just been my added complication!)... So I guess the answer to the OP is: you can use those old hours if you are able to justify them on the exemptions form, but it'll cost you £53.00

I think you will find many old farts like me out there that not only completed in less than 45 hrs but managed it in 35 when this was an option - it had to be at an approved school and IIRC had to be done in under 6 months to be allowed to reduce the hours to that but many did it, especially many on air cadet scholarships which, in those days, gave you 30 hours in a 4 week period.

As far as the exemtion goes I think you will find a few that have managed it ok - the extra training I believe is on top of the "old" hours, so what you have done after should cover it.

Sorry, been away from the forum for a bit as away with work.

My experience - I was led to believe that the exemption was pretty much going to be a given. Send the form away, pay your money, get your paperwork :)

There's nothing really that tells you HOW you should be filling in the form though...

Urgent operational need? Well, I just went with 'I have my skills test next week'
How will safety not be affected? 'The 12 hours were all pre-solo. Since resuming the course in March I've soloed, demonstrated all parts of the syllabus and been recommended for the test by my flying school'
And for luck I photocopied the pages of the logbook relating to the time I was claiming :)

Didn't have any issues.

Yep, I agree that the £53 was high, but in context with the £160 examiner fee, £300 152 hire and £168 application fee for the licence then it didn't seem too bad ;)

Now if you want to talk about a real scandal...

I passed the test on August bank holiday Monday, applied online for the licence the next morning, attached all supporting documents...

... and I'm still waiting for my licence. 35 working days and counting...