SkyDemon
 

I'm training for my PPL and I've started using SkyDemon Light to generate my PLOG. In my PLOG the level for one of my waypoints is shown with a red background which I assume is a warning. I cannot work out what it is warning me about? If anyone can tell me I would be grateful.

Ah OK, it's MSAW for the mast at Wells.

You are possibly too low or too high :)

I believe that would indicate you are below the minimum safe altitude - for VFR flying this isn't necessarily an issue, but worth understanding why it's warning you, as while e.g. if it's due to a mast near your track which you will be able to see and avoid that's probably not an issue, if it's because the ground rises up you might either end up violating rule 5 (by e.g. flying too low over a built up area), or worse fly into the ground if it rises significantly...

As a matter of interest do you do a manual Plog first? i.e Measure track angle, distance etc and apply wind to work out headings and times?

Do us and yourself a favor and change your mindset!

First. Yes, you will use solutions like Skydemon, Jeppesen MFDVFR, Garmin, or whatsoever later in your career, but I strongly advice to DO SO AFTER you finished you PPL. Use a paper chart, a calculator, a pencil, colored stickies, paper and hand drawings of wind triangles. Once you really master that, you are ready to get an electronic brain extension. Skydemon has a very special way to calculate certain numbers, which is clearly different to what you do by hand (i.e. fuel: understand that part first by hand calculations). Also keep in mind that important things are NOT COVERED (and most certainly will not be covered in the foreseeable future) by a Skydemon PLOG, such as start- and landing distances! We had an inexperienced pilot wanting to go from LOWZ on a hot summer day and it only saved him by surprise when a friend saw his PLOG before T/O - he was in serious danger (660m RWY; elevation 2,470ft; 90F; 150HP; ...)!

Second. RTFM, read the manual instead of blasting such questions through the internet. You will easily find that Skydemon shows a error if your planned flight altitude is below MSA Minimum Safe Altitude. Read also the manual how to set that. But again, do that after you learned what MSA is by understanding your text books, SERA and your local airspace.

I'd suggest you learn how to use the SkyDemon, what its functions do, how they are displayed, etc, before just "using" it. A bit like, "I'm learning to fly in a Cessna 152 and I found a lever in a quadrant on the panel that moves up and down, what is this for?"
Short answer: you are heading for high ground above your planned altitude, or controlled airspace at your altitude, or restricted/danger/prohibited area.
As has been said. Learn the basics first before relying on electronics.
Look at the CAA chart (paper version) of your waypoint.

Bad bad idea to use Skydemon when learning to fly! You definitely need to get strong knowledge of basic flight planning and able to use charts, CRP-1, markers and rulers. Any flight school tolerating their students using Skydemon need to be stripped of their FTO certificate ...

So an FTO who is progressive and makes sure their students are properly prepared and understand the tools they will almost certainly use in the real world once they gain their licence should be shut down?

Yep. That would be pure genius.

Steve - thats not the point that's being made. By all means teach gps use prior to licence issue - but the point is that that should only come after the basics have been learnt by paper chart, whizz wheel and so on. Its vitally important to understand what is actually going on with wind calculations and to be able to navigate from a plog and chart. Even if you never have to use those skills in anger once you have qualified, they will help you spot gross errors and are available if the technology lets you down (I mean WHEN the technology lets you down)

Indeed it is important that pupils should learn how to do this by hand but they also need to learn how to use the computerised system, as evidenced by this question! ATO's should include some training on GPS devices etc. purely as they are so common. It is NOT acceptable to simply ignore them for the purposes of training purely because they are "easier to use".

Heston, AucT said 'Any flight school tolerating their students using Skydemon need to be stripped of their FTO certificate'.

I was objecting to that blanket statement, not your more nuanced definition of what should or shouldn't be taught.

I seem to remember passing my driving test at 17 without having done any motorway driving (not in the syllabus), and the instructor recommended a 'pass plus' course which was basically an optional hour spent focused on motorway driving. It was certainly a good idea and served me well at the time.

I wonder if a similar thing could be set up for this kind of scenario; not a rating or qualification as such but a CAA-backed optional extra syllabus that schools could offer to newly qualified pilots? I'm sure there are plenty of other things that could be covered at the same time?

Pilots gain additional experience on new systems and schools get more revenue. There would also be a smoother transition between student and PPL holder, as lets face it we're not done learning at any stage are we.

Of course, nothing to stop schools offering this themselves I don't suppose, doesn't need to be officially backed.

Makes more sense to me than trying to shoehorn GPS training into the PPL course and undermining the importance of traditional navigation methods.

I must say that I am a recent PPL and there was very little to cover the use of GPS and apps such as skydemon, but I wish there was. I use skydemon all the time now. I haven't to this point, but when I come across an aircraft with a built in GPS I am going to be left to my own devices to work out how to use it.

If the technology is there, it should be used. And I now use skydemon as my main nav tool. I always mark up a map and have a paper PLOG, handy for scribbling clearances etc (although I don't bother with the timings, but would if SD crashed and I went back to the map). This serves me perfectly. Why on earth this isn't the standard way of going about a XC is beyond me.

*Ducks for cover*

It's not the standard way because what happens when the battery fails or the tablet decides it's not playing, or the electronic system you learned is superseded in 2 years' time?

The reason for learning the stopwatch & compass method during the PPL is the same reason why freeform jazz musicians are well-trained in traditional music first - get the basics right, and then you're well-set to learn other stuff more effectively.

I recently discovered that a student pilot was using Skydemon to make up his Plog. The simple (!) acts of deciding what route to fly, measuring the track angle and distance on a chart, applying wind corrections manually (whether mental DR or using the whizz wheel), preparing and studying the chart etc are essential building blocks in learning how to navigate.

Once these steps have been mastered including how to navigate whilst airborne then and only then is it acceptable to start using other devices to assist the task.

I wish more PPLs would realise that having a licence does not stop you from talking to instructors and asking for extra lessons in anything you may or may not have covered, some schools/clubs offer a "beyond the PPL" course of various types but if this is the case or not a decent instructor will be more than happy to do any training like this.

Descent instructors?

It's over forty years since I learned to fly and I know many things have changed since EASA but are there climb instructors, too?

P.s. Best learn how to spell properly before relying on electronic devices to do it for you.... :E

I will have my map and printed PLOG, I will know exactly where my position is when the battery decides to pack up so will carry on the flight using map, printed PLOG and watch... No big deal.

With the way technology is going in 2 years there will be something making life even easier to move on to - if there isn't and the app store closes forever, I will still have a map, ruler, whizz wheel and pencil.

I also agree this is essential, but I don't see why when you know this you can't use a gps as your main form of nav?

Personally I like to do all of my planning even for a local bimble. I wouldn't just jump in on a xc without having drawn a line on a map and thought about it first.

This is true I know, however my instructor didn't have skydemon and neither did most of the others... (Although after showing him what it can do he does now).

lol.

When i have done a long night flight across the Atlantic then woken up after three hours sleep speelink is one of my lower prioorities!:rolleyes:

I believe the AOPA Radio nav course includes GPS and counts towards the IR(R).
Whilst the a good grasp of the basics of navigation is essential, and some are happy/derive satisfaction from just applying the basics, the modern world uses everything available.
Yes, there are many GPS devices available, but the underlying principles are the same.....sometimes RTFM is required.

Foxmoth,

The irony was obviously lost along with the sense of humour.

;)

I thunk my reply showed a bit of a sense of humour!:}

What iPad model do you have and what version of iOS

SkyDemon runs best on iPad, but a few people have reported problems with iOS 10 and the Garmin GLO with the symptoms you describe.

I've flown over 150hrs with SD on one of these. It's been faultless, with a battery life better than anything else I've had. http://www.gsmarena.com/asus_memo_pad_7_me176c-6412.php

Funny thing about tech; we bought a bells and whistles glass cockpit a/c at the club. Although made au fait with the glass in the check out and pre brief I found I was still flying it with the standby instruments. Old habits etc.

I run SD on my iphone 5, works a treat and not as clunky as an iPad, plus IMO it stops you fiddling about with it being smaller and keeps your peepholes out of the cockpit.

I'm using an iPad mini 2. It worked well with the GLO until recently. Currently running iOS 10.0.2.

To be fair to the OP, I also have no concept of how wind direction and speed affects drift.
I don't bother with all that archaic whizzwheel "working it out" and writing a plog.

Why would I? I can just draw a route on SD lite and tell it what I hope the wind will actually be and it tells me headings to fly.

In this way I can bypass having any sort of intuition about things like drift.
Max Angle of Drift ? and therefore actual drift ?
PAH! SD will work that out.

I pity you fools who think you are "oh so clever" just because you can do diversions in your head, are aware of the masts along your route and the pitfalls of flying right at a VOR.

I don't have to clutter my brain with any of that junk.

Perfect, just hook SkyDemon up to the autopilot, when it tells you you are in the overhead, pull the shute, job done.

I may be old fashioned or grumpy (or both) but would it not make sense for someone training for a PPL to forget about aids like SD until at least have licence in hand? I'd like to see people able to navigate with map & compass alone at that stage.

It seems fairly obvious (I started learning navigation the “traditional” way) but there are now some interesting counter arguments.

In the gliding movement there is a very similar discussion going on. Yes, teach conventional visual navigation but introduce modern kit at the same time, so when you send someone off on their first cross-country, they have something to fall back on.

In the past, if you became “uncertain of your position”, the advice was to carry on for a bit and if you couldn’t relate to anything on the map, to land in a field before you ended up somewhere you really shouldn’t be. Given the high workload / high stress situation of the first solo flight away from the airfield, trying to stay up as well as navigate, how many incidents / accidents had this as a prominent factor?

Also, in today’s complicated, crowded multi-use airspace, how much leeway is there for making navigational errors before the consequences become serious, given traffic density and the promise of increasing litigation from the regulator? There is definitely a “duty of care” issue and considering you can put together a GPS moving map on a PDA with mount for around £100, there are no excuses. Especially in front of a magistrate.

Being able to have controlled airspace, obstacles, drop zones, danger areas, winch sites, NOTAMs, etc. pop up on the map with a “bing!” if you get too close is such an improvement on what we used to have, that the safety case is obvious. Would you drive a car with no seat belts on the motorway? It’s getting to that point.

I still feel that basic navigation skills should be taught to competence but after that, anything that makes it easier and safer should be welcomed.

As an old fart, I was brought up on P11 compass and out of date rubbish maps. I think it is important that:

1. Pilots can navigate using map and stopwatch for the time when GPS goes down.
2. The should be able to competently use GPS for the accuracy it gives in shark-infested custard and know the pitfalls of SATNAV, eg rubbish in = rubbish out.

I think most agree here. Learn to rub two Boy Scouts together before you buy a box of matches.

Before I uograde my I pad to IoS 10 . I noticed a mention earlier of problems with SD and Garmin gps. Can anyone elaborate on this or have any problems been fixed?
Thanks.

If you use a Garmin GPS, suggest that you do not update to iOS 10. Do you actually need any of the functionality that iOS 10 offers? If not, I'd hold back. I always keep my aviation iPad on a 'stable' version of iOS... Not worth the risk.

Thanks Stevelup. Good advice.
Meldrew.

Treated myself to a new Galaxy Tab. SD works fine in the car - just need to test it in the flying car. Will sell the GLO. Can now install iOS updates free of worry! Problem sorted (I hope).

(Have a fire extinguisher ready. Ed.)

My mini iPad works fine with all iOS updates done. It connects to my Bluetooth GPS (GNS2000) perfectly well,if anything it's quicker than before (it has suffered the previous update woes when Bluetooth GPS connectivity was engineered out).