PPL Student training logs
 

Hi all, I am bit baffled as why my training school wold refuse to share my training logs i.e the notes instructors write after each flight. Would someone here share some insight as to why a training school for PPL would refuse to share this information.

Much appreciate any responses.

Welcome to pprune and I hope you're enjoying your flying.
Depends what you mean by 'share'. I usually write my notes in front of the student following the de-brief or if there isn't time then, read them out at the beginning of the brief for the subsequent flight. There shouldn't be anything in the notes that yore not prepared to discuss with the student.
If you mean 'let you take the notes away with you', then no, that never happens. If you change school, then the notes will be sent direct to the school, never given to you to take. If a school closes down, then the notes should all go back to the CAA.
I've had students which I've shared with another school, as they spent part of their time in different locations. Under these circumstances, I've contacted the other school and we've shared notes by e-mail, which when printed, have gone in the student record.

TOO

I would be surprised if, under the freedom of information act , you we not entitled to a copy of your notes if you so wished. Could be data protection act.

Almost certainly this is personal information which is therefore FoI exempt, because covered by DPA.


However if we got into a culture of people demanding to see their notes then suing over differences between instructors' professional judgement and student's uninformed opinion then maybe the notes would end up having to go the way of job references? - nothing of any interest is ever written down, and all the real business is done verbally.

I have several friends who instruct, and mostly the notes are for the benefit of other instructors, e.g. where you are at in your flying journey in case another has to take over your training for whatever reason. The stuff that is relevant to your development should be passed on verbally to you by your instructor during the lesson debrief.

At the end of the day, I would not be too paranoid about what they might write down. It comes down to that bond of trust that is required between you and your instructor. After all, you have your lives in each others hands every time you go up.

I can't think of any legal reason they *can* withhold that from you. The Data Protection Act is prettty clear on that point, so far as I'm aware.

Personally, I always give students a copy of my instructors notes (in fact I usually give them the original and keep a copy) as well as using them in my debriefs.

G

Me - debrief notes exist as an e-mail to the student.
Dead easy to copy to the CFI or other instructors.
Problem gone.
(I don't do paper)

TheOddOne
Actually the first school is required to keep the original and only send copies to the second school.

The FTO I learned to fly with used them solely for the instructor's reference. If I was to move school in the middle of my training they would pass those notes on to the next school.

I was more focused on the feedback my instructor gave than the notes he kept for his reference. The FTO where I fly out of now, not only write them up with the student there, but get them to sign that day's entry too; it apparently avoids any ambiguity.

You could just ask them, if they've said they won't share them, just ask them why. It could be that if the notes are for instructor reference they could focus purely on what you need to improve and be written in a very frank and honest way that could come across as negative or curt.

I can't see data protection stopping them sharing the notes with you, data protection covers how they should store and ensure the security of your personal data.

TPP

My CFI wouldn't let me see them as "they aren't for you to read". Legally, as it does contain personal information they do have to provide them on request but I decided I wouldn't push the point with him... As others have pointed out there isn't anything very important in them anyway and my current IR instructor reads his note to me as he writes it down!

Ultimately, if you really wanted them you could get them but you might end up p*ssing people off...

I think that I would seriously consider changing school in the circumstances you're describing crablab. You are describing a situation where the instructor is not trusting the student to participate fully in their own learning process.

I wonder if your age has anything to do with it? At 17 (assuming your profile is correct) there are people who will tend, unfairly, to infantilise you somewhat. I wonder if they'd show the same patronising attitude to an ugly old greybeard like me.

Frankly with comments like:-

You are showing more maturity than your instructor! You certainly seem to grasp the law better.

G

Interesting. Where I instruct, the students always get (and keep) the notes. They will then present them to the next instructor. Periodically, they will submit their training records (including the notes) to the school for archiving.

If you were involved in an accident the AAIB might well call for records of your training, so they should be an accurate record of all training given and the standard achieved. Students should be asked to sign all such records to verify that they have been debriefed on their performance. If for any reason you change training providers, then the school must provide a copy of your Training Records as part of a formal handover. An Examiner can ask for the records prior to conducting a Skill Test.

If a school will not allow you to see your records then its highly probably their records are inadequate.

Interesting.....

I've never even thought of asking to see mine. I'd rather them feel they could write anything they like about me on them without fear of reprisal.

Genghis nope, profile is correct! That may well be a factor, in that they feel as I'm younger I may not be able to "deal" with all the nasty things they've written about me... ;)

I'm sure he'd disagree! :E

Whopity although I agree with your statement re. the AAIB, I have never been asked to sign my records (it does sound like a good idea...), I disagree with the suggestion that records are automatically branded inadequate if you're not allowed to see them!


Perhaps the best way to go about this record collecting is to have a sheet where the instructor writes down learning points and student writes down learning points after each flight? (And they both sign at the bottom) That way, you're engaging the student in their own learning to a greater extent.

The requirements for training documents are stated in UK CAA Standards Document 55, Paragraph 14.1. This includes a detailed list of what must be included in training records, who should see them and what should happen when/if a student moves to a different training provider. The same material is undoubtedly included in some EASA document, but the Standards Document is easier to find.

The document includes the following statement:

Refusing to permit students to read everything that is written in their records is likely to foster a culture of distrust.

The full document is available on the CAA website.

This would be the "Guidance Criteria for the Approval of Training Organisations Offering Courses of Training for Pilots Licences, Ratings and Certificates" (i.e. 'guidance' and not 'requirements') which, in any case, has no relevance whatever to Registered Facilities or 'Declared Training Organisations'No, it isn't. This is just the UK CAA's opinion of 'best practice' and, whatever its merits, has absolutely no validity in law. It's what used to be referred to as 'gold plating'.

So how do these notes affect a student pilot, are they sent to the CAA? or do they effect skills test?

Ordinarily no, they aren't sent to the CAA although, along with your PPL exam scoresheets they are kept for 3 years and are available to CAA inspectors on request.

Your examiner may look at your training log to assess what stage you're at when taking your test but it's very much up to the individual.

In the Professional training world these records are made available for sponsors to inspect when conducting training reviews as well as instructors and training management however I've never heard of a student (PPL/CPL or otherwise) who has not also had access to their training records students countersigning the report after completion is not only a UK 'gold plating' thing - it's practiced at several other schools across the EU that I know of. Could it be perhaps that there's nothing infact written down which is why the records are being withheld?