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-   -   Tracey Curtis-Taylor (Merged threads) (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/579030-tracey-curtis-taylor-merged-threads.html)

Jetblu 7th Jul 2016 10:54

Flying Lawyer

"Dream on"


I agree. It will not happen here, will it.

Wonderful news regarding Tim Peake now taking the 2016 Masters Award after further and very careful consideration by the HCAP board. Very well done.

deefer dog 7th Jul 2016 12:48

I didn't interpret that as being a retraction of the award for TCT (although I wish it had been). The award can be made to more than one recipient in one year, and in some years it is not awarded at all.

The HCAP appear to have dug their heels in despite the gathering momentum of evidence to show that TCT has, at best, been careless with the truth.

Jetblu 7th Jul 2016 13:01

I believe you may have misinterpreted this time deefer. HCAP are not a devious outfit and would now know that the unscrupulous madam deserves zero from them.

https://www.airpilots.org/

airpolice 7th Jul 2016 13:17


What We Do

https://www.airpilots.org/template/t...logo-strap.png

Today, the principal activities of the Company are centred on sponsoring and encouraging action and activities designed to ensure that aircraft are piloted and navigated safely by individuals who are highly competent, self-reliant, dependable and respected. The Company fosters the sound education and training of air pilots from the initial training of the young pilot to the specialist training of the more mature.

Through charitable activities, education and training, technical committee work, aircrew aptitude testing, scholarships and sponsorship, advice and recognition of the achievements of fellow aviators world-wide, the Company keeps itself at the forefront of the aviation world.
I'm failing to see how giving TCT recognition, in the face of what we know now, fits in with the stated aims of the HCAP.

Mike Flynn 7th Jul 2016 13:29

It appears you are correct deefer dog.

HCAP clerk Paul J Tacon spoke an hour ago to Dave Jarvis, the Daily Mail journalist who wrote the story in Saturday's paper.

He confirmed there are two Masters Medals this year.

One well deserved to Tim Peake for his exploits in space.

The other undeserved ( in my opinion) to Tracey Curtis Taylor for her three month dual trip to Australia with airline pilot Ewald Gritsch.

She can claim she was the "sole pilot" of the Spirit of Artifice but denying there were two pilots on board might be more difficult.

At the very least HCAP should recognise Ewald's contribution.

By co-incidence TCT and Ewald received their FAA private pilots licences together at the same time and place:ok:

deefer dog 7th Jul 2016 13:34

Jetblu,


I believe you may have misinterpreted this time deefer. HCAP are not a devious outfit and would now know that the unscrupulous madam deserves zero from them.

https://www.airpilots.org/
For the record at no time did I state or even imply that the HCAP were a "devious outfit." I am familiar with what they do and represent. I simply stated that I do not believe that they will retract the award to TCT. Regrettably I have read nothing that indicates they will retract it.

Jetblu 7th Jul 2016 13:59

deefer dog

You are correct. The words used were mine, not yours.

Having read the other posts, I am now utterly and totally speechless, and it now looks like I'm eating my own words.

Unbelievable.

Genghis the Engineer 7th Jul 2016 14:05


By co-incidence TCT and Ewald received their FAA private pilots licences together at the same time and place
Having a continued interest in fair play, I don't think that there would be any dispute that TCT and EG know each other well and collaborate, regardless of the nature of these particular flights. So, that they got their 61.75s at the same time isn't exactly a cause for criticism.

G

deefer dog 7th Jul 2016 14:18

Jetblu,

No problem at all. Yes, it's a tremendous shame, and although they are not likely to admit it there certainly will have been a great deal of consternation among the HCAP membership.

Personally I think it is a large blot on their copybook, and I wonder if the committee that considered TCT's award were concentrating more on the consumption of wine and brandy, or were affected by it, rather than carrying out a modicum of due diligence. I wonder also what previous recipients of this now greatly devalued award may be thinking.

On the plus side perhaps one day Tracey Curtis-Taylor may find herself standing in front of a gold backdrop, much like Tony Blair did yesterday, with a quivering voice and choking back tears, after he had been judged. Let us hope.

John Eacott 7th Jul 2016 14:29


Originally Posted by deefer dog (Post 9432532)
Jetblu,

No problem at all. Yes, it's a tremendous shame, and although they are not likely to admit it there certainly will have been a great deal of consternation among the HCAP membership.

Personally I think it is a large blot on their copybook, and I wonder if the committee that considered TCT's award were concentrating more on the consumption of wine and brandy, or were affected by it, rather than carrying out a modicum of due diligence. I wonder also what previous recipients of this now greatly devalued award may be thinking.

On the plus side perhaps one day Tracey Curtis-Taylor may find herself standing in front of a gold backdrop, much like Tony Blair did yesterday, with a quivering voice and choking back tears, after he had been judged. Let us hope.

Whilst you may not know better, that belittling of the Trophies and Awards Committee is both inaccurate and abusive in tone.

The Masters Medal is solely the prerogative of the Master and is decided by him or her alone. The previous and latest recipients are indicative of the high standards applied: that this one instance has undermined the norm is a reflection on both the recipient and the past Master, not the HCAP nor the T&A committee.

Mike Flynn 7th Jul 2016 14:31

If you look back through previous joint recipients there is 2009.

2009 The Crew of US Airways Flight 1549

Captain Charles "Chalkie" Stobbart
Flight 1549 landed on the Hudson River thanks to the skill of Sully Sullenberger but was shared by the crew.A truly amazing aviation feat.

Chalkie Stobbart beat a 70 years record.


SAA captain Charles "Chalkie" Stobbart, 60, beat a 70-year-old aviation record by 18 hours and 59 minutes.

Stobbart flew the return trip from Cape Town to London in three days, 15 hours and 17 minutes, bringing the world record back to South Africa.

The previous record was set in 1939 by Alex Henshaw, who flew the return trip from London to Cape Town in four days, 10 hours and 16 minutes in a single-engined aircraft.

"I'm elated, and of course my head is still shaky from all the bouncing in the airplane," Stobbart said. "There were hours and hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror," he said, citing dust storms in the Sahara and freezing rain.
Contrast those winners to TCT and Ewald.

Like Blair and Brexit no one in the LAA or HCAP has the honesty to say we got it wrong.

If the past Master of HCAP made a mistake based on what he knew at the time then surely he could ask for the matter to be rectified. The same applies to LAA and their Bill Woodham Navigation trophy.

deefer dog 7th Jul 2016 15:37

John Eacot,

You are correct - I did not know that the award was the prerogative of one person, and I should have researched that prior to posting. In view of that I retract my comments related to the consumption of wine and brandy, and apologise.

Notably though your admission


that this one instance has undermined the norm is a reflection on both the recipient and the past Master
adds another dimension. You appear to know the Company rules, so I wonder if the ONE person who decided to grant the award is also permitted to retract it before the ceremony?

airpolice 7th Jul 2016 16:01

Deefer, I also wondered if there might be a precedent for withdrawing a Master's medal.

I'd like to know if HCAP have a procedure for "dealing with" a Master who is alleged to have brought the company into disrepute. I think, and it's just what I think, that maybe the ongoing reluctance to distance the company from TCT might be sufficient grounds.

Obviously that process would need at least one member to suggest that such a tragedy has indeed befallen the HCAP. Perhaps none of the membership feel that way.

Another thought (I'm on a roll here) is that I have not seen anything official from HCAP to say that TCT has been / is to be awarded the Master's Medal. So..... if they didn't tell everyone she's getting it, they wouldn't necessarily feel obliged to tell everyone that she's not now getting it.

Jetblu 7th Jul 2016 16:07

Every reputable organisation of this land, and most honourable Courts will put a wrong back to right when the evidence is sufficient, such as this here, whether that be via 12 people, 3, or 1.

I/we await the honourable announcement from HCAP regarding the TCT debacle. I genuinely believe it will happen. I cannot imagine such visual contempt to be allowed by them, I really cant.

deefer dog 7th Jul 2016 16:49

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We in this industry/sport know the truth. Many of those who read the recent newspaper article may have good reason to doubt the validity of the award also. Certainly there are many within the HCAP, and let's face it the LAA also, who may feel uncomfortable about the accolades their organisations have bestowed upon Tracey Curtis-Taylor, and it's probably fair to say that quite a large number of their members feel that the situation should be rectified.

Will the awards be retracted? I think not. Do I really care that much? It's a shame, but there are much bigger injustices taking place around us, and many of those result in loss of life or freedom.

The HCAP has lost a degree of its credibility, and the Master's Medal has been devalued greatly. Tracey Curtis-Taylor will suck up the award on the due date, just as she has the publicity while her "hand was held" by an instructor as she flew from here to there with an entourage of bag carriers and a film crew. She did so with an embellished CV and had the audacity to give motivational speeches in front of a backdrop stating that she had been "alone in a bi-plane." Clearly she has more front than Sainsbury's, and little respect of the truth. If I were Amy Johnson and heard that TCT had been following in my footsteps, or emulating one of my "solo" flights, I would be turning in my grave.

That's the way I see it anyway. Justice would be watching TCT choke on the medal, but other than that I really don't see much point in blaming the HCAP members. They didn't give the award. Let them deal with the person who did, and maybe he will come to his senses.

That's me done on the subject, so over and out!

B Fraser 7th Jul 2016 16:57


Excellent news that the HCAP Masters Medal for 2016 goes to Tim Peake

Excellent news. He even had the decency not to claim that he was "celebrating" the flight of Yuri Gagarin.

Stanwell 7th Jul 2016 16:58

John Eacott,

Re the HCAP..
I have a little bit of a problem with your assertion in post #698, responding to deefer dog...
"The Masters Medal is solely the prerogative of the Master and is decided by him or her alone."

I will again quote from the Terms of Reference for Awards set down by the Trophies and Awards Committee regarding the Masters Medal:
"This is intended to be an immediate award, made at the discretion of the Master and on the advice of the Trophies and Awards Committee." (my bold).

It seems pretty clear to me that it's not an and/or option.
Am I missing something?

deefer dog 7th Jul 2016 17:02

Thank you Stanwell,

In view of that I retract my retraction and re-insert the reference to "wine and brandy." :D

Mike Flynn 7th Jul 2016 18:08

In reply to B Fraser

Quote:
Excellent news that the HCAP Masters Medal for 2016 goes to Tim Peake

Excellent news. He even had the decency not to claim that he was "celebrating" the flight of Yuri Gagarin.
I would prefer to think Tim Peake was 'celebrating' the flight of Helen Sharman:D

Flying Lawyer 7th Jul 2016 19:38

India Four Two
If you had read post 50 you would not have needed to scratch your head.

I find it anachronistic that a professional aviation organization models itself on a medieval guild
Our founders made that decision in 1929.(As did the founders of the Master Mariners three years earlier.) I understand the reason for their decision and see no good reason to depart from it, not least because IMHO what matters is that our activities have continued to keep pace with the fast-changing world of aviation.
The meetings to which I referred in my previous post were not to discuss medieval guilds, nor what is often described as 'the Golden Age of aviation' during which we were founded, but issues that currently affect pilots and issues that will arise in the foreseeable future. (I had similar meetings with equivalent bodies in Australia, New Zealand and Hong Kong.)

I don't understand what you mean about our "headquarters address". Our (only) office occupies part of an office building named by its owners in memory of the late Sir Alan Cobham, a distinguished and intrepid aviation pioneer.
Nor am I sure what you mean about "dinners in fancy dress." I explained the occasions when some members wear our 'livery' in post 50. Perhaps you regard 'black tie' as fancy dress? We hold two formal 'black tie' events each year. That is the common dress code for the annual dinners of many associations and clubs in the UK.
We decided upon 'white tie' to celebrate a very special milestone in our history: HM The Queen bestowed Honourable Company status upon us. We are the second of only two livery companies ever to receive that honour.
Are we proud of it? Yes, very.
Was the white tie banquet fun? Yes, great fun. http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ir-pilots.html

Jetblu
You have misinterpreted my comment "Dream on."
I don't share your view regarding the legal aspect.

deefer dog
Your "wine and brandy" theory is wrong.
The rationale for the award to TCT has already been posted.
I readily understand the opinions expressed.

(Edit)

Genghis
I suspect you have misunderstood Jay Sata's point about TCT and Ewald Gritsch obtaining their FAA private pilots licences at the same time and place.


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