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CAP413 Phraeseology Change
I've been informed there is a slight change to approach phraseology from Thursday.
The callsign now precedes the reply to FISO/ATC whereas before it followed the reply and the runway and intentions are also included (I thought this was done anyway). Any reason for the change? CAP413 Ch4 page 42 refers. |
Thanks for the info. Being outside UK, I am not acquainted with CAP413, actually I wouldn't know how or where to consult this document. Nor am I really curious to dig it up.
Still it would be nice to see an example. And also I wonder: is this change the reflection of a change at ICAO? If so, where is that documented? |
Interestingly it's only for FISO (if you look at P.23 it's unchanged for ATC).
The specific changes comparing old to new (based on the examples) are: Old: FISO: G-CD Land at your discretion, surface wind 050 10 knots AC: Roger, G-CD New: FISO: G-CD land at your discretion, wind 250, 8 knots AC: G-CD Roger, (Landing/Going Around) FISO: G-CD touch and go at your discretion, wind 250, 8 knots AC: G-CD Roger, touch and go |
Originally Posted by Broadlands
Any reason for the change?
413 has become inconsistent and messy. Perhaps it will be corrected in due course... |
Can't understand that change!
Callsign should go at end of read back. Put it at the beginning and on a busy frequency this can be potentially confusing for other users monitoring who might be misled into thinking that FISO (or AG/ATC) are making the call rather than the a/c. As a matter of interest Lufthansa, for reasons best known to themselves, always put call sign at beginning of the read back which is in contravention of ICAO R/T. |
Seems to me that putting the call sign at the front when addressing an aircraft, and the aircraft tailing his reply with his call sign has the least potential for confusion.?????
Who decided to fix what ain't broke? I'd like a word:= |
Who decided to fix what ain't broke? I'd like a word |
What happens to a pilot who gets it the wrong way round? Does the a/c turn into a pumpkin? Who really cares? Isn't it time that the regulators stopped mucking about with trivia?
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It seems common sense to head one's message with the call sign of the addressee, and end it with the call sign of the sender, and not just in aviation RT.
The addressee call sign at the beginning gets the addressee's attention on a busy frequency so they know that what follows is for them. They 'listen up' and hear the message. |
Originally Posted by alexbrett
(Post 9203636)
Interestingly it's only for FISO (if you look at P.23 it's unchanged for ATC).
The specific changes comparing old to new (based on the examples) are: Old: FISO: G-CD Land at your discretion, surface wind 050 10 knots AC: Roger, G-CD New: FISO: G-CD land at your discretion, wind 250, 8 knots AC: G-CD Roger, (Landing/Going Around) FISO: G-CD touch and go at your discretion, wind 250, 8 knots AC: G-CD Roger, touch and go * Runway designator must be included (even if there are not multiple runways available) unless CAA approved local instructions allow it to be omitted. ** 'Instant' if you don't have a 2 min average anemometer |
I blame the RTFPWG...
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It's got to be a mistake. The vast majority of the conversation examples in the document have the a/c callsign at the end of the aircraft's reply, where it should always be. Apart from ensuring the ground station knows the full message was understood, by the a/c it was intended for, it also serves as a full stop so that everyone on frequency knows when that reply has come to an end! Of course the author could be one of the many pilots that regularly use incorrect R.T. at pretty much every G.A. airfield...................
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I refer the Honourable Gentlemen to a reply I gave earlier. (In another thread.)
Originally Posted by tmmorris: Do you think that was deliberate or as MJ implied a cockup? Quote: Many journalists have fallen for the conspiracy theory of government. I do assure you that they would produce more accurate work if they adhered to the cock-up theory. — Bernard Ingham. MJ:ok: |
Is this not an Amercanism, to stop the clipping of the callsign.
"So let's try it with AFIS and if all goes well, spread to ATC". Well DON'T clip the transmission. I won't be changing soon. |
... those couple of examples ... rest of the examples ... |
Interestingly it's only for FISO Being outside UK, I am not acquainted with CAP413 --- Still it would be nice to see an example. And also I wonder: is this change the reflection of a change at ICAO? ICAO Doc 9432 was actually a copy of CAP413 Edition 1. They are now on Edition 21 and ICAO has not changed. |
Not the first kindness you've shown me, sir, thanks indeed!
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Thank goodness the CAA are busy with the really important stuff.
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Originally Posted by Whopity
In which case its not a Clearance so there is no requirement to readback anything
3.1 At a meeting of the CAA’s RTFPWG in February 2015 it was highlighted that CAP 413 makes no provision for pilots to report their intentions to an AFISO, having been advised ‘land at your discretion’ or ‘runway occupied’. This meant that an AFISO can have insufficient information as to the aircraft’s intentions and, importantly, it restricts the development of situational awareness for all aircraft operating on the ground and within the traffic circuit. There was a consensus amongst members that a pragmatic solution would be for the CAA to develop and propose phraseology which required pilots to advise their intentions. 3.2 At a subsequent meeting of the RTFPWG in July 2015, exemplar phraseology was proposed to and accepted by the WG. This will be published in CAP 413 Edition 21 Amendment 6 on 6 November 2015 and become effective on 10 December 2015. The above information is, of course, published for AFISOs. I've yet to find where it is published as information for Aircrew... |
This may all stem from my pursuing the use of the words 'final for the option' by pilots trained in the USA at some UK airfields which was not covered in CAP 413, the words 'the option' not conveying sufficient information to the FISO/ATCO as to the pilot's actual intention.
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