Pace, how many PPL conversions/checkouts have you done? I can now jump into just about any single and fly it OK without reading the POH (if there is one I DO read it, but have flown aircraft that do not actually have one), but remember being very concerned converting just after qualifying and think that is the norm for most!

Has anyone ever bought a car at a car auction in the winter (dark) then had to drive it out of their car park before it gets locked up, drive through a busy town trying to find the light switch, wiper switch, the window switch cos some prat left them open, adjust the seat, all without the chance to see things in daylight? Then find the fuel warning light on & have 10miles to go before you find a filling station? But you arrive home with the radio blaring, a full tank, all lights on, windows shut etc. what is the problem in broad daylight flying a slightly different aeroplane? Attitude! Feel! Get on with it! Or am I being bloody minded?

There is one difference between Electric Flaps and Lever Flaps...


The transition time for Electric flaps is about 4 seconds for each stage
of flap. With the Handle, you can go from full flap to none in less than
a second (especially if it slips out of your fingers!).


So on a Cessna, for a go-around or T+G, Its just one movement of your right hand Right to Left over the Flaps, Mixture, Power, and Carb Heat. By the time you have reached the carb heat, the flaps will have almost finished their transit.

I have trained pilots up for a Citation SIC ratings and signed them off and sat in with numerous PPLs on a variety of singles and piston twins.

But as stated have literally years back had the keys thrown at me on complex singles I have never flown and got on with it.

Some time with the POH, Some time sitting static in the aircraft examining every switch and then flown off sometimes into IMC with such aircraft.
Its no big deal and I am nothing special :ok:

I really do think its either money making by the training establishments or there are some pretty incompetent pilots around.
As for a PPL yes PPL going from a PA28 TO c152 ??? :ugh: its a bit like driving a ford fiesta and needing instruction to drive a volkswagen polo. Your not going from a ford Fiesta to a formula 1 Car.

Pace

Again, it depends on your experience - if you have done this a number of times, no problem. IF you have just passed your licence then you will be very nervous doing either and probably would like someone next to you - Also, of course, you are talking flying clubs that have minimum requirements and realistically are talking about an hour checkout - even with my experience I would not expect to go to an flying club that does not know me and be allowed to fly their aircraft with much less than a 45 min checkout!

Foxmouth

I appreciate that if you turn up at a flying club unknown they will want some sort of checkout. Sadly while many licensed pilots are competent many are totally incompetent :E and I would be unhappy sending my nearest and dearest up for a flight with them (can think of quite a few who fill that category)

Having done 45 minutes in a PA28 and determined you are well up to speed and competent I see no reason why they should demand another checkout on an equal aircraft like a 150. Unless their motives are to do with money.

Pace

Pace,

Well, using my incorrect user name after having been put right before is either deliberately insulting or careless ignorance! I feel very insulted!

Personally I would agree that a conversion for an experienced pilot from Piper to Cessna should need very little, but I think in real life you will be hard pushed to find a club that will NOT require a full hour conversion as a minimum. For inexperienced pilots most DO need this and I think your experience might blind you to how poor some can be! I did point out though that most schools should be able to do the conversion WITH the club checkout. More realistic for a Pa28 pilot would be to do an hour checkout with conversion and then a few circuits to satisfy them you are still ok on the Pa28.

Well, the OP, if anyone can remember him, told us that he had 80 hours and inferred that the PA28 was the only aircraft he had flown.

Matt.

I hope you managed to gain some useful info from this thread dispite the bickering.

MJ:ok:

Foxmoth

Whoops done it again :E i know you won't believe me but totally unintentional at least its given me an embarrassed laugh and I need a laugh just now ;)

Pace

I would not mind, but it is an aircraft type, so would expect anyone who knows aircraft to get it right!

Its me miles away while typing sorry :uhoh: FOXMOTH maybe change the aircraft name to FoxMouth ??? :E

I was once given a very stern rebuke by an elderly lady doctor when I referred to her aircraft as a Foxmoth.

'This, young man, is a Hornetmoth! not a Foxmoth!' :eek: (Long time since I was called a 'young man')

You probably know who I mean ;)

MJ:ok:

Really thing you should wash your mouth out for that. Anyway, bit difficult given that dH is no longer going and those that hold the ticket would not be interested.
Yes, I know the lady in question, and yes, a very different aircraft, flown and liked them both - and I think I have been called "young man" by her as well, but a few years ago, sadly she is no longer with us!

There is only one plane worse than a C152 and that's a C150. Both are nasty little aircraft. They have wacking great engines, drink fuel like they have a leak yet are barely capable of dragging themselves into the sky. It is most unlikely you'll be able to take two adults and sufficient fuel to do anything more than taxiing. Take more time, save more money but stick to the PA28.

PM

Pilt you have forgotten to mention that other abortion the Aerobat.

That is a bit negative to the Cessna - personally I would not go for Piper OR Cessna - To my mind there are many other better options, but for clubs/schools they make sense and it is then a case of what fits what you are trying to achieve, if a C150/2 fits the bill and the price is right, go for it!

Cessna 150/152s, and Piper PA28s for that matter, 'do exactly what they say on the tin'. They are safe, stable, simple aeroplanes that are virtually indestructible in the training role.

It's not really fair to criticise them for being dull and boring.

MJ:ok:

Yes it is - they ARE dull and boring, and I see no reason NOT to criticise them for that! A bit like the Top gear team being asked to review the Fiat 500!

Hahaha :)

Foxmoth. But they were designed to be like that, and they do it very well! I even feel the need to defend 'that abortion' the Cessna Aerobat. Elevator so heavy at speed that you needed two hands to pull 6G, but in it's time, probably introduced more people to aerobatics than any other type. :E

MJ:ok:

Aye but there is an option which isn't dull and boring in the same class which doesn't have all the nasty's designed out of it.

The PA38 tomahawk.

MJ yes. It would have become a great trainer if it had stayed in production and had the crappy doors and weak maingear sorted out. Flew very well though and had lots of great features. Wide cockpit, great viz, user friendly fuel system, etc. :)

There might even have been a PA38 Aerobat one day! Now that would have been something! ;)

MJ:ok:

Chuck, I can hear you banging your head!

FYI:

One reason to get a CHECKOUT (as we call them in the USA, instead of conversion) is because many places have an insurance policy which requires a checkout.

So much talk about money. Yes, money matters, but maybe spend more time making money and then fly more?


Anyone out there ever fly a Varga Kachina? Now that is a fun little plane.

Hi Glendale. Yes, a 'checkout' here, is what you do with an instructor on a familiar type when you are out of practice, or move to a new club. Usually just a few circuits. A 'conversion' is moving to a new type. A 'conversion' would count as a 'checkout' too, but not usually the other way around. Not much different to over there I imagine.

Kachina is a great little aeroplane. I was just a bit long legged for it though. :O

MJ:ok:

mach jump

I never flew the kachina from the front, only from the back seat. might be more room that way! took a girl for a ride with the canopy open...great fun.

so many different terms we have. what you call a checkout, we might call ''currency".

on to the wild blue.

Glendlegoon

Insurance stipulations are often added by the operator to suit their own interests!
I used to fly a Seneca Five for a private owner! The aircraft was managed for him including a pool of pilots available! This operator had high twin hours added to the insurance requirements for more reasons than just to bring down the premiums ! He used that as a reason to the non pilot owner to keep up the day rates and ward off lower hours pilots who offered to fly for the owner at much lower rates!
So don't think the big bad insurance companies unilaterally add all these restrictions the operators play a part too and often either for protectionism or to increase usage!' Not our fault mate that you have to do a 10 hr conversion! Bloody insurance!" :{
Nice little aircraft which was much much more fun than the PA28 was the Grumman Tiger

Pace

Of course you can jump from one SEP into another and just 'bash orf'.

I saw James Garner and Donald 'Splendid' Pleasence do it in 'The Great Escape' and that was a true story..wasn't it?

Mind you, I think they crashed...

Ah yes but what about the deadly free-castoring nose-wheel eh?

What, like on the Rallye? Now there is an aeroplane any monkey could fly! With or without a checkout :E

Nope - still dull and boring IMHO, try something like the Pup150 or metal Robin if you want a non boring equivelant.:ok:

All this talk about real aeroplanes, let's get into taildraggers if you really want to frighten a new pilot! ( tongue firmly in cheek)

Meldrew

Taildraggers ??? YES then you do need a conversion and more :ok:

Pace

Fond memories of lurching from side to side down the strip at Clacton on my first attempt in a Cub with the instructor laughing herself silly behind me. 'That's right, use all the strip..you've paid for it..'

Taildraggers are not the demons some make out. I did my PPL back in the late 70s on C150s, and immediately converted onto the lovely dH Chipmunk in abut 5 hours.

Now there's an aeroplane with exquisite handling. I've never flown better. Well worth putting up with the cold in winter (no heater), the short range (2.5 hours safe max), the rattles and draughts, the total lack of stowage space, and the oil you get smeared in.

If you fly one, it'll spoil you anything else.

Ah! de Havilland!

A point worth making for the uninitiated. If you learn to fly on a tail dragger, the conversion to a nose wheel aircraft should be fairly simple. ( half and hour for me) learn on a nose wheel aircraft and then the conversion may take a few hours as stated above.

I remember when I thought a 172 was a big airplane. Now I think its boring and I don't get bored. Much rather fly my son's nice 170B than a 172.

I also remember checking myself out in a taildragger. It was a Citabria, and before one needed an endorsement. Later that day I gave dual in it to a fellow instructor. The good old days...

Did work for a Piper dealer for awhile. Got to fly all the Cherokees, 180 horse Arrow and Comanches. They had a pretty active salesman who took me under his wing and let me fly a nice variety of airplanes that passed through. Fun job for a young CFI.

PA38? Whats wrong with the doors they are great.

And weak main gear, I have seen rubber on the underside of the wing after a student had planted it with another instructor.

Crappy trimmer system I will give you. But in that group of training heaps its the best of the lot.

Never seen rubber on the underside of a Cessna wing! :p

Oh yes! I forgot about the awful trim system. ;)




MJ:ok:

Mad Jock

Never had the pleasure :ugh: but heard that you could watch the tail twist in spins :E

As with Desert above I was lucky in being involved with a Bournemouth company and it was very much the case of can you take that! Never flown one was met with you will be fine :E

i can remember leaving Bournemouth straight into a 600 foot over cast in a Trinidad. this one had one of those fangled weeping wing things added.
Going IMC I was met with a strong chemical smell which got me thinking until I discovered there was a tiny switch near your knee to operate the fluid. I had knocked it on :ok:

But usually you can operate a generic check list and add or subtract bits to suit:ok: They are all pretty similar and it does not take long to feel the handling traits.

so manipulated insurance requirements to generate hours sold. Bit like government with Green taxes!!! Not our fault gov its the insurance :ugh: and in the green tax thing saving the planet.

but then there are some pretty crap pilots out there who I would not even send the hated next door neighbours dog up with.
the type who land on a wing and a prayer with everything crossed in the hope that it all turns out ok! More like passengers in the procedure rather than pilots who know what they are doing and ahead of the game.

Pace

What's wrong with it?
Poorly harmonised controls ( sensitive in pitch,but rubbish in roll), poor trimmer, t tail means a lot of trim changes that should be taught are not there (good in a tourer but I would say not in a trainer).
Stalls and spins well and good cockpit layout/visibility, but still rather have a Pup or a Robin.