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-   -   Need Help With Your PPL Training Costs? (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/527109-need-help-your-ppl-training-costs.html)

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU 5th Nov 2013 12:29

Need Help With Your PPL Training Costs?
 
Simple, claim that flying lessons towards a career are your Human Right. OK, you pay it back should you eventually get a decent job.

Taxpayers foot £10,000 bill for failed asylum seeker's flying lessons - Telegraph


Taxpayers will be hit with a £10,000 bill to pay for a failed asylum seeker to train to be a pilot, even though the Government has said he must leave Britain next year.


Newcastle City Council will be forced to spend £10,000 on flying lessons for Yonas Admasu Kebede and a further £10,000 on his living expenses following a court ruling.


Critics have called the judgment unfair and said the 21-year-old from Ethiopia was being offered a "blank cheque" at taxpayers’ expense.


Local authorities are legally obliged to meet the training costs of children who have no parents so they can find a job.

Newcastle city council took their case not to fund the flying lessons or degree to the Administrative Court and the Court of Appeal but lost, in a ruling which may now set a precedent for other claims.

The Kebedes' lawyers successfully argued that the council should pay for the flying lessons – which will cost £165 an hour – as the brothers could not apply for a student loan because of their immigration status.
If this has already reached Jetblast, sorry.

pasir 5th Nov 2013 14:51

This case as reported - involves the usual muddled incompetence of the
British Govt. The Etheopian involved, despite being declared a failed
asylum seeker, was granted 10 years to remain in the UK while his case was being progressed. This time lapse has enabled him to engage lawyers (at our expense of course) resulting in taking Newcastle Council to the High Court (at further great expense to us) to succeed in winning his case.
The taxpayer will pick up the tab for the flying lessons and accomodation at £20,000 (despite his being under Home Office orders to be deported in one year) plus heavy legal fees the sum of which has as yet not been
disclosed. It is not clear whether or not he will go on to apply for Commercial pilot training, estimated at £80,000 (or whatever the going rate maybe).

No surprise then that the UK is indeed seen by those abroad as Treasure
Island - Home of the free bank - All welcome.

Pilot.Lyons 5th Nov 2013 19:00

Need Help With Your PPL Training Costs?
 
Yeah and they dont and wont help me to get it and ive worked and paid that "tax" for the last 20 years (im 36) i still cant afford it due to a very attractive woman and two young children to feed and clothe...

Can i do it for free? NO.

Help everyone else but their own... I maybe a bit harsh and will probably have this removed or be slated for it... Oh well.

foxmoth 6th Nov 2013 07:24


disclosed. It is not clear whether or not he will go on to apply for Commercial pilot training, estimated at £80,000 (or whatever the going rate maybe).
Well as it is supposed to be towards a career there seems little point in stopping at the PPL, that achieves very little towards any job!



Help everyone else but their own... I maybe a bit harsh and will probably have this removed or be slated for it... Oh well.
I would think there are very few, apart from maybe some on the far left who are happy with this - I am sure the judges if they had applied a few more brain cells could have found a way of limiting this, otherwise it opens the floodgates! If it was not for PAYE I would withhold my taxes, then they could throw me in prison and I could get a few "human rights" like this!:mad::rolleyes:

Captain Smithy 6th Nov 2013 10:02

I'm surprised more haven't commented on this bizarre case. It certainly makes me feel sore as I struggle through trying to fund and work towards something I may never achieve, and yet someone who has no right to be here and who has contributed nothing to society seemingly walks into court, demands that the state pay for everything, and the state/court seemingly just rolls over and accepts it.

Questions that need answered:-

1) A career as a pilot is a vocation - i.e. his choice, so no-one's forcing him to become a pilot. So why has it been deemed that he has a "right" to this from the state?

2) A PPL has no value in terms of commercial flying. It is a Private license. So why has it been deemed to be of any educational value?

3) Where does this leave other "wannabee" pilots, wanting funding for training but are, for want of a better expression, "financially disadvantaged"? Will this open up the floodgates for similar claims?

I am seriously considering writing to my MP about this, and I suggest that others should also do the same.

Smithy

CaptainChairborne 6th Nov 2013 22:39

It's a bargain!

Some kid is brought to this country and dumped, through no fault of his, by his father. He's brought up in care and now has the chance to get a profession, be paid well above the average wage and pay loads of tax? What's not to like?

The alternative for most people who grew up in care is at best a life on well below the average wage, more usually a life on benefits, and often a lot of very expensive taxpayer-financed years in jail

All you who are moaning about this, consider how much more than £10,000 was spent on your education and health care before you were old enough to pay tax

We may well get a great return on our investment from this guy

Slopey 7th Nov 2013 01:12


Originally Posted by CaptainChairborne
We may well get a great return on our investment from this guy

How exactly are we going to manage that when he gets deported next year when his leave to remain runs out, after 12 months of tax-payer funded PPL lessons? (Plus accommo, plus legals).

It's not like he's going to go flying for the state gratis, his PPL grants him incredibly limited earning potential which isn't likely to get him into the 40% bracket, and it'll be many many years at 20% tax to repay the taxpayers investment into him (even counting ENI etc).

And if he tries to go commercial after that?? And then completes his training and goes to fly for an airline outwith the UK paying no tax? Where's the "return"?

Even if he goes commercial, he won't be in the 40% bracket for a few years if FO salaries/contracts are anything to go by, and if he has any sense he'll go abroad and follow the demand.

As tragic as his situation may be personally, why should the UK tax payer have to pay for entry into a profession which has a high financial cost of entry?

He could work in a local supermarket for the next 12 months, and his contribution to the UK will be far higher through normal taxation than from the PPL farce.

Pilot.Lyons 7th Nov 2013 07:20

Need Help With Your PPL Training Costs?
 
My father beat us all up and my mother is a compulsive gambler.... What help do i get? NONE

I was born here and made to feel guilty for being here..... But i get no help? How is that fair?

I have paid far more into the tax than he ever will

pasir 7th Nov 2013 07:41

As posted elsewhere. While The Guardian has printed what some may regard as a heart wrenching history of this would be pilot the bottom line is that as a 'Failed' asylum seeker. aged 21 and under a deportation order within one year, he is not, and may never have been, in danger or fear of his life. With all good wishes and congratulations for the progress made in his scholastic achievments, the fact remains he is well on course to achieving higher education courtesy of the British taxpayer. To now assume it is his privilige and rights expecting taxpayers to stump up a further £20,000 (leave alone at least £30,000 legal expenses , and more presumably to follow) Now for him to indulge in an expensive past time he expects others to fund, that the average British youth may also desire but wouldnt stand a chance in hell of obtaining, is surely a kick in the teeth to those that have funded his greatly improved life style and expenses over the past years.

Captain Smithy 7th Nov 2013 08:24

So is it now a given that we will all now get a free PPL at state cost?

As has already been said, why does he and his brother "need" flying lessons/Uni? The rest of us had to start by going to Tescos and stacking shelves, wheeling about plants at the local garden centre or doing an apprenticeship in a manky factory as a first step in life. I.e. if you want something, you have to work for it. Why does anyone have a "right" to demand from the state and they just oblige?

Do I have a "Human Right" to an ATPL? Should I just go to the local court and demand that the state picks up the bill as it's my "Human Right"?

Smithy

Daygo 7th Nov 2013 08:49

Maybe for the next part of my career I should quit my current job, claim jobseekers allowance and tell them that I need a TR on an A380 with base training! Maybe the government will pay for that?? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

This country is a joke. Time to bail out.

FANS 7th Nov 2013 12:18

Socialists are very good at spending other peoples' money.

This is unbelievable.

When can we leave Europe.

Only the Guardian could see the benefits of this.

CaptainChairborne 7th Nov 2013 19:35

Look folks, him and his generation are going to be paying for your pensions, healthcare and care homes soon. We need to invest in his generation now so that they pay enough tax to keep us in the manner to which we spoiled first-worlders have become accustomed

Get real, skilling-up the younger generation is an investment for OUR future, look at how much the UK has improved because of immigration over the last fifty years. It was a poor, lazy, broken down, dump when I was growing up, back in the miserable days of three-day weeks, power cuts and 25% inflation

Pilot.Lyons 7th Nov 2013 21:13


Originally Posted by CaptainChairborne (Post 8140465)
Look folks, him and his generation are going to be paying for your pensions, healthcare and care homes soon. We need to invest in his generation now so that they pay enough tax to keep us in the manner to which we spoiled first-worlders have become accustomed

Get real, skilling-up the younger generation is an investment for OUR future

So why not train people that grew up here??

Why others? Are you saying that the young british people would not contribute to pensions etc no i suspect not.

The point people are making is that we do not get the same chances that this person had and we were born and bred here. Some of us have had a shite upbringing but no one else says here you are lets give you a shot in life mate! So why should anyone else get that chance?

pasir 7th Nov 2013 21:50


Look folks, him and his generation are going to be paying for your pensions, healthcare and care homes soon. We need to invest in his generation now so that they pay enough tax to keep us in the manner to which we spoiled first-worlders have become accustomed

Get real, skilling-up the younger generation is an investment for OUR future, look at how much the UK has improved because of immigration over the last fifty years. It was a poor, lazy, broken down, dump when I was growing up, back in the miserable days of three-day weeks, power cuts and 25% inflation
I cannot speak for you - but having paid in for my own pension and healthcare several times over I shall not be calling upon a council funded pilot to support me in old age - but thanks for the offer.

However if so keen to have a 21 year old man of foreign origins enjoy free flying lessons, who having enjoyed 11 years of UK hospitality then repays taxpayers by taking a Council to the High Court (at our expense naturally) at fees and costs totalling at least £50,000 then why not contact Newcastle Council direct, enclosing your blank cheque - Since be assurred the final costs to fund our Ethopian applicant will not remain at £50,000.

Captain Smithy 8th Nov 2013 09:24


Look folks, him and his generation are going to be paying for your pensions, healthcare and care homes soon. We need to invest in his generation now so that they pay enough tax to keep us in the manner to which we spoiled first-worlders have become accustomed

Get real, skilling-up the younger generation is an investment for OUR future, look at how much the UK has improved because of immigration over the last fifty years. It was a poor, lazy, broken down, dump when I was growing up, back in the miserable days of three-day weeks, power cuts and 25% inflation
I'm glad you think so, for the rest of us our experience has been the opposite.

So why him and not the rest of us?

I think most of us can see the future on this one. Laddo gets all the freebies, lessons, expenses etc., then gives up the flying post-PPL because he realises he can't afford it without someone else paying. Result - large amounts of money squandered on a selfish scrounging individual with no return on investment, whilst the rest of us knock our pan in & continue getting pumped by George Osborne and the nutcases in the local Council in order to allow him and people of his mindset to continue doing so. Don't say you weren't warned...

Steevo25 8th Nov 2013 14:46

I feel it is very misguided to think that we should support him as he may contribute to our pensions in the future.

The PPL is not going to give him any method of contributing to anything in the aviation industry. Who is going to pick up the tab for the next step which will cost far more than the PPL. Even if the taxpayer picks up this extra £60k, if he is deported then is he really going to send a thank you cheque every month back to the UK and say 'Thank you, put this towards your pensions'.

Even if he does get everything required and is one of the very lucky ones that manages to get a job in the aviation industry, who says he will work in this country and contribute to our tax system. Unfortunately, you have to go where the work is so he is could be contributing to someone else's tax system and help pay their pensions.

I am all for helping the young but with limited funds available, I am afraid that charity must start at home.

I really do feel for him for the life he has lead and in some ways been thrown in to, but there are equally needy people that are in a far worse situation and have contributed to the system here. They should come first.

Ebbie 2003 8th Nov 2013 20:32

I saw this story in the online Telegraph and while I expected the right wing backlash it did make me think.

Apparently it has been officially determined that state aid is available for costs of training to be a commercial pilot.

This seems to run contrary to usual practice where such training is not deemed legitimate educational activity -specifically (unless some thing has changed since I left the UK) once cannot use the student loan system, and the cost is not subsidized (notwithstanding that there are now "fees" they do not cover normal educational institutions' actual costs, they continue to be subsidized).

So maybe now a commitment to a commercial course will get the soft loans (student loans) with deferred repayments and also some government subsidy - not a lot, just the same as the average student studying any other vocational course; if one wants to revitalize the UK flight training industry and maybe forestall the looming pilot shortage that would be one way to do it - this case seems to suggest that under the right/wrong circumstances flight training is a legitimate educational course of study.

On the general point I recall many years ago (the early 80's recession) of guys I knew who did not have work getting the "Rock n Roll" paying for driving lesson to aid their job prospects (it did work by the way).

I think instead of writing to ones MP along the lines of "bloody asylum seekers coming over here leaching off the state" it would be better to have a campaign to see flight training as a legitimate educational goal in itself and thus open it up as a career to more people - develop the industry and, as a spin off, improve airfield facilities, modernize the fleet and, as is the way with these things, maybe reduce the cost.

To illustrate my point, I trained at North Perry in Florida - next door was the Broward County Community College's flight training facility with a huge fleet of brank spanking new SR20's and 22's - if you wanted a career in aviation that's where you went and yes, it was subsidized.

pasir 8th Nov 2013 23:17

New Allegations on free flying lessons
 
If the much derided D.Mail have got it right then things 'aint quite what they
would seem regarding the failed asylum seekers claims that he arrived in the
UK as an abandoned 15 years old youth. The Mail this evening have stated that in fact he arrived as a 'fully grown man of almost 20'. If this is true
then they state this would invalidate his claims of entitlement to free flight lessons. As to claims that his father was either dead or in prison, the Mail state the father in fact owns a 3 story house in an affluent suburb of Addis Abbaba. Regarding being abandoned by his friends, the Mail states he
has them shown as F/B friends. Check the full story in the Mail on line.


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