Group Ownership in the East of England - So much demand, so few offerings...
 

Hello,

This is my first post, but I thought it would be good to highlight a problem in my area. I, aged 16, am trying to find out the best way to make up a decent amount of hours over the next few years, while at sixth form.

During my searches, I cannot help but find that there is extremely high demand for aircraft syndicates or shares in the East of England, namely Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk. However, there are, to say the least, very few available through the pages of various aviation classifieds websites.

Surely it would pay off to make a community of some kind to bring these share seekers together, in the hope that some could create their own share groups. Personally, I'm looking for shares in something like a Jabiru J160, Eurostar (VLA) or Sportstar RTC, that I could get hours towards my CPL on and would be cheap to run and economical. However, I am confined to £125 an hour for either club hire of a 152, or after a £1000 initial payment, hourly hire of a Cherokee.

Best Regards
Luke

I completely agree with you, I'm learning in Earls Colne but there's nothing around whatsoever. I check the usual sites daily but zilch.

You will find that there are plenty of groups out there but a) they don't advertise online and b) nobody wants hour builders in their group.

Hour builders tend to use and abuse aeroplanes, not caring about longer term maintenance issues because they're planning to be out of the group in a few months time. Their high demand affects availability for other group members and their low experience when starting out means they're more likely to make silly mistakes which can cost the group quite considerable money. All in all, not a good thing.

Where it can work is if someone has an aeroplane sitting idle who's looking for someone to fly it to cover costs. Then you can buy block hours along with your group "share" or membership.

I'm not really looking to hour build over a short time. I'm looking for cheap flying (aren't we all?!) over a 3 year minimum share period. I reckon there must be at least 5 or 6 other pilots in the area who would be interested in a cheap to fly 2 seater. There are decent J160s out there for £30k, with 150s coming in as cheap as £15000

If you know so many people who are in the same position as you, I recommend you pool together your resources and buy something that you want with your own group around it. 4-6 people works best. Budget for hangarage, insurance, hourly engine wear and tear, oil and fuel. Then don't forget the maintenance costs which can vary considerably from a couple of hundred per year to several thousand.
Also bear in mind that insurance is usually much higher if you are low hours, as you and all your friends are likely to be. There are discounts for >100 hours, >100P1, >500 hours.
I have turned away low hours hour builders, and invited low hours people who are looking for something to enjoy and have fun with. I know others that would do the same, and still more that would be quite happy to have hour builders in their group. I can think of three groups like that straight away. None advertise online, some advertise on the club notice board and some by word of mouth. But we are not East of England.

Yup - good business is to look for a gap in the market and make use of it, if there is a shortage here it is a good way to set up your own group, you may not get financial advantages, but you can be the one that leads what aircraft it is and what rules the group is set up with.:ok:

Sadly, at near-17 I don't think that starting the group is quite what I had in mind! A good suggestion nonetheless, and one that is appealing. Hopefully I start my new job soon, so here's to saving up!

Best Regards
Luke

You would struggle to get cheap flying out of the aircraft you have listed - they have a high capital cost which not only makes them expensive to buy but also expensive to insure - which in most cases will significantly outweigh the lower running costs.

To find a low-cost group you would probably be looking at an older aircraft with low performance operating on a permit. I recently found several in my local area in the £50 to £70 a month / £50 to £70 per hour bracket. Not South East, but not far away.

Trouble is, East Anglia is a big place with relatively few widely scattered airstrips and licensed airfields.

I've been in our group for 18 years and every time we advertise a share we get comments such as 'lovely aeroplane bit it's just a bit too far to travel.....'

On average it takes 12 months + to shift a share.

I also agree that groups are reluctant to take on hour builders: fortunately we don't seem to get enquiries from hour builders

Cusco

Looks like the best thing for me to do is to stay at the club. £195 a year and £115 an hour, but it looks like the best option for me, considering the fact for the first few years I might only be doing minimal hours.

Our group (which is based near Basingstoke, so a bit far from East Anglia) works out cheaper than the club rate you mentioned if you fly 1 hour/month or more in the 2 seater. We've been going for a long time, so the capital costs are all factored in now. Anyway, it is worth looking for a group if you are planning on doing at least 12 hours a year. If anyone is interested in joining a group in the South (except for hours builders, of course) PM me for more information. We've got shares available.

Sadly there is a lack of 2 seater based shares in my area. Here are my options:

Bourn Rural Flying Corps:
Yearly Membership: £195
Hourly C152: £115
Hourly C172: £157
Distance: 10 minute walk

G-AVLB Group (Little Gransden)
Joining Fee: £1060
Monthly: £45
Cherokee 140 Hourly: £89 (Up to 1:15 can be counted as 1:00 on the tacho)
Distance: 15 minutes by car

G-BRPK Group (Little Gransden)
1/15th Share: £1000
Monthly: £50
Cherokee 140 Hourly: £75
Distance: 15 minutes by car

Socata Rallye 880B Group (Willingham)
1/5th Share: £3000
Monthly: £35
Hourly: £65
Distance: 25 minutes by car


They're all the ones I've found on Afors and the like.

Best Regards
Luke

I would say, if you can get the £3000 together go for the Tin Parachute (Rallye), an hour a month in that and you are saving, even allowing for interest if you borrow the £3000, if you fly more than that the cost comes down more, plus you will probably find you have more availabilty for taking it away. Do check they have a contingency and engine fund - you do not want to join then find you need to pay out a load. Also, just because it says £3000 does not mean that is what it will cost you - you can make an offer, if the person selling it has been trying for a while you might find you can get a fair chunk off that.

they seem pretty good to me

G-BRPK is a nice looking aircraft.

You don't need anything fast just solid.

The 140's aren't really a 4 seater. More of a 3 or two with some room to stick a tent etc in the back and go and have some fun.

Thanks for the response everyone!

Just a few updates:

-The Socata Rallye 880B has around 3400 on the airframe and nearly 2000 on the engine. Also, it is now £80 per month and £50 per wet hour (old ad). It is based out of a small grass strip that is privately owned and does experience waterlogging, although there is a fund to get that Perfo stuff installed.

-G-BRPK has recently had a new engine, new prop, new Colton paint, new interior and in the flesh looks great (has visited Bourn often). I must admit also that this looks a great option, with better cruise speed and touring ability than the 152s at Bourn. I think it also has a Garmin GPS built in, something like a 395 or 495.

Best Regards
Luke

Motorglider
 

TMG/SLMG - 70 hours count to CPL.

Tibenham have a £300 power flying membership that allows flying their Grob 109 (lovely aeroplane) for £65/hour (on tacho) .... Switch the engine off and the rate comes down but the time still counts!

Worth thinking about surely??? :ok:

SS

DEFINITELY needs to be an engine fund - and one with enough in to fund the replacement!

Shortstripper, Are you sure 70 hours count towards CPL? I looked into this a few years back and LASORS stated only 30 hours count. I know the CAP804 has replaced LASORS in the EASA world and admittedly I have not read CAP804 in any detail.

Any links or references to sections where it states 70 hours TMG can count to CPL would be much appreciated.

Yes you are right. It is 30 hours; the 70 hours thing must have stuck in my mind from something else?

However, 30 hours and a years membership is still only £75 per hour if all flown within the year ... A cheap, fun and instructional way to gain 30 hours I'd have thought? The training is free as it's done within the club and the TMG GFT is around £100. Bloody good value!

SS

I would have a bit more of a plan for your hour building.

You need to do more route work and decent sized nav ex's just flying an hour or two a month won't really prepare you for the CPL.

You would be better to save them up and do 30-40 with some decent long nav exercises to unfamiliar airports.

And although fun gliding about with the engine off doesn't really help you preparation for the CPL course.