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And Crash, yes, gliders DO recover OK without power, so do powered, but minimum height loss is achieved with power and this is where the appropriate technique for type comes in. At some point different type tecnique may be required. But this is something that will be learned later. The OP is looking for help for a Skill Test. These are not (normally) carried out on Tornados with the wings swept back. They are done in pretty much benign training a/c that the testee is familiar with. Frinstance can you tell me the difference in stall recovery tecnique between a C152 a C172 a PA28 & any other popular basic training a/c? (today) not Chipmunks, Tiger Moths, Avro504, Stearman & such. Though I think you could prob include all those. |
Going back to the original poster who is uncomfortable with stalling I still think this can be a result of the modern cautious approach.
Recover at incipient is the flavor of the day and I too prefer the FAA system where fully developed stalls are experienced. We have had many debates on the spin or not spin and all this does is to leave a doubt in the student pilots mind of what if! What if I do a stall on my own and get it wrong! I get a massive wing drop or worse. I do not know what to do because I have never been there and am uncomfortable with the unknown. "If you do not push the boundaries you never find what lies beyond" My advice is to take time on an aerobatic machine and spend some time really chucking the aircraft about. Pace |
As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison.
The secret of comfort in stalls is to keep the aircraft in balance with the ball in the middle. Few training aircraft or tourers will misbehave in that configuration up to and including a fully developed stall. Our Trinidad for example will just mush down at 1000 ft a minute fully stalled in balance. So if nervous about stalls just keep the thing in balance and all should be well. Should have added, the advice on recovery I agree with, keep the thing in balance, stick or yoke forward until it starts flying again, typically a slight nose down attitude, and then apply power and get back to straight and level then cruise. There'll only be a second or two between moving the yoke and moving the throttle and confident firm manoeuvres help. |
Hi Foxmouth, throughout my PPL training in Tomahawks we practiced SSA, and in every occasion the plane would drop its left wing by 90degrees in less than 0.5 second, and then continue into a spin. The only correction for that was to apply opposite rudder and wait for the spin to stop.
On just one occasion the right wing dropped, and we were over vertical for a second or so before my instructor took over with a 3g long pull out. I was certainly not ready for that, as I had my right foot ready for the left wing drop. If the OP is flying Tomahawks, I can see what is worrying him. In all other aircraft and gliders I have been able to have a straight ahead, spin free stall, maybe it is something to do with my own C of G. in the Tommy. |
They don't call them Traumahawks for nothing, dreadful blinking things even worse than a Cessna 15x:uhoh:
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We all want smooth trouble free flights but with anyone who posts here a fear its usually a lack of confidence and the unknown.
The only solid way out of that is to face those fears and to get the confidence that you can handle anything the aircraft can throw at you otherwise you are merely masking and avoiding. There is nothing wrong with masking and avoiding but true stalls occur when you are stressed, distracted and will take you by surprise and its then that the masking and avoiding falls apart! I was lucky in having an old school examiner! We would take a twin up to 10K and really put it through every stall scenario possible and I was glad he was that type. Pace |
as I had my right foot ready for the left wing drop Incipient spin recovery in a 152. Normally they go to the left ... once I was surprised when it went to the right. Which the instructor admitted having done on purpose, because I had to cope with either, in case it ever happened for real. |
Phiggs, either you were not keeping the ball in the middle or the aircraft was badly rigged, I have extensive time flying and instructing on Pa38, yes it would drop a wing, but this was always easily containable with rudder (preventing FURTHER wing drop, not picking the wing up with rudder), and I have never had one actually go into a spin from that unless it was what I intended!
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As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison. I'm not suggesting "throwing it about" just get comfortable in 3 dimensions when it does go titsup. |
As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison. I take the opposite view; instead of living in fear of some unknown googly your aeroplane might bowl you, do a course of aerobatics and lay the ghost! Once you can fly, with confidence, the entire envelope the aerolplane can do and some things it can't do, nothing handling-wise will fase you. It also teaches you to fly by feel and looking outside rather that becoming a panel-watcher; you learn to listen to what the aeroplane is telling you through your hands and feet, flying it like a competant musician plays an instrument. Or you can just be an aeroplane driver and do it by numbers. But why would anyone want to do that? |
Quote: As far as I'm concerned an aeroplane is a car with wings and the goal is a comfortable trip from A to B. I hate g forces and would always seek to avoid them. The closest I get to "throwing an aircraft about" is recovery from unusual attitude on my IR renewal and I hate that like poison. Crikey, what an attitude! Why not just buy a ticket from BA and let someone else do the flying while you enjoy a G&T down the back? I take the opposite view; instead of living in fear of some unknown googly your aeroplane might bowl you, do a course of aerobatics and lay the ghost! Once you can fly, with confidence, the entire envelope the aerolplane can do and some things it can't do, nothing handling-wise will fase you. It also teaches you to fly by feel and looking outside rather that becoming a panel-watcher; you learn to listen to what the aeroplane is telling you through your hands and feet, flying it like a competant musician plays an instrument. Or you can just be an aeroplane driver and do it by numbers. But why would anyone want to do that? There's a great deal of satisfaction in operating an aircraft and its systems down to ILS minima and seeing runway lights emerge from the gloom exactly where they are supposed to be. Just because I don't like unusual attitudes doesn't mean I can't handle them, but I certainly wouldn't seek them out! |
As you wish, your choice.
I get my satisfaction flying the thing manually, enjoying the view & finding waypoints etc come up where & when I expect them. Watching a computer do the job is not for me. What this has to do with the stall, I fail to see. |
The point about the stall is twofold.
First learning to throw an aeroplane about the sky is not a good way to build confidence in people who find the G forces and strange attitudes deeply unsettling. Secondly, in the context of the original posters question, the point is how to avoid them in the first place (see the warnings, keep the aircraft in balance etc.....) and how to recover with confidence should you somehow end up in one ( lower nose, add power, level wings etc...) Personally I've flown in solid IMC in seriously rough weather and never been anywhere near a stall despite some "interesting" behaviour from the VSI. That's because the aircraft was in cruise attitude, in trim and I wasn't daft enough to try to hold altitude. |
John
You say you have flown aerobatics so even if you hate them With a vengeance you know what to expect? I see a comparison with learning to drive a car where you are taught to avoid ever getting into a skid but are uncomfortable in an out of shape car which might be over steering ,under steering ,sliding or a mixture of all three! The comfortable driver/racing driver can play those conditions with confidence!balancing the throttle and steering with the car going at 100mph sideways. Mr avoid comes along but is petrified of loosing the car and what it may do! The day Mr avoid does loose it he sails into a brick wall frozen at the controls A skid pan is money well spent for the learner driver does not mean he has to take up motor racing if you get the gist? In aviation an aerobatic machine replaces the skid pan and with a suitable instructor allows the student to explore and understand and become comfortable with all that scares him the unknown. Pace |
Pace,
You have to realise you are not talking to a "pilot" in the sense that you (or I) might think of, you are talking to an Aeroplane driver, and trying to talk him round to your way is just not going to happen. If he is happy with his "flying" then best to leave him to it.:ok: |
In aviation an aerobatic machine replaces the skid pan and with a suitable instructor allows the student to explore and understand and become comfortable with all that scares him the unknown. |
Quote: In aviation an aerobatic machine replaces the skid pan and with a suitable instructor allows the student to explore and understand and become comfortable with all that scares him the unknown. What a great analogy!! I think I shall borrow that one! |
John
I am sure you are an excellent pilot and have although not liking G and the sensation of a falling aircraft (which many do not) still put yourself through those manouvers in your aerobatic experience. Here we are talking about a poster who is scared of stalls which is fear of the unknown. In his case he would be best going up with a considerate aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic machine where he can be shown what does happen and experience it himself until he is more confident. The whole thing being demonstrated kindly and as a fun thing in safety rather than a gut wrenching intense demonstration. Otherwise that fear of the unknown will always be there throughout his flying in later years. As for driving I used to be a formula Ford, Formula 3, Clubmans driver in my early twenties until I lost my sponsorship and took up flying instead. I dont mind mild aerobatics but do not go out of my way to do them or like you do not relish Hi G ;) Mild G ok or hi in short shots but I am not an aerobatic pilot :ok: |
"I get vertigo on tall buildings too" - so do most pilots, nothing to do with flying, just the brain is confused because your connected to the ground. Thread drift off :cool:
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I have a friend who was an RAF lightning pilot and now a BA heavy Captain who could not peer over tall buildings without getting vertigo!
It's easy to walk a plank sitting on the ground but have a 1000 foot drop below the plank and try it ; ) Pace |
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