Actions on Interception
 

I was reading the London 2012 Airspace "Actions on Interception" leaflet yesterday; it documents the non-standard interception procedures to be used during the Olympics.

I live under the northern part of the LTMA, between Luton and Stansted and today I heard what sounded like two fighters manoevering in or above the cloud for a while around lunchtime.

It set me wondering. The interception procedures are designed for visual meteorological. conditions. How will they handle unidentified traffic that is in the sort of IMC we have had for the last few weeks? Visual interception and aircraft identification may not be possible. Will they go straight to the part of the document that states that they may use lethal force?

That is a very interesting question, and obviously nobody in the know is going to be talking about it :)

There will be rules drawn up for this and my guess is that any non-radio traffic going past a specific stage or showing specific behaviour will have to be shot down unidentified.

It's not as if the UK is always CAVOK :)

At a slight tangent, not being specific to LTMA 2012, what are peoples thoughts on selecting 7700 if they were to be intercepted. It is as far as I am aware the correct procedure to follow, but I am unaware of anyone who has done it or would do it, they would rather avoid it and persist in trying to get in touch with SOMEONE, albeit 121.5 or some nearby local field if outside the coverage of a radar controller. (Low-ish level Irish sea/Scotland springs to mind).

I suspect everyone both sufficiently deranged and sufficiently skilled to fly into solid IMC at low altitude over a big city in radio silence mode are recruited by the air force before they get a chance to become terrorists.

Not necessarily. They may wear glasses.

Lol :D :D.

Or have too many cavities in their teeth. :mad:

What's the stalling speed of a Typhoon? I like the notion of a Typhoon appearing on the left wingtip of C152 doing 85kts........

I guess the much vaunted 'rocking of wings' will be the Typhoon desperately trying to remain in the air at high alpha and on stall speed.

Oh . but they've got helicopters to do the lethal force bit on Cessnas....

Not being a pilot I've no idea what the typhoon stalling speed is, but have witnessed one circuit bashing with 3 tutor ac with no dramas. (Really noisy though)

Interesting question re: an intercept when IMC prevail. Had a look at the leaflet and otherwise it is pretty clear, however my concern is that the use of non-standard procedures is not a help to anyone. I'd regard an intercept as a rather high-stress situation, more so if one has inadvertantly wandered into the zone by accident as result of becoming "temporarily unaware of position". Under those circumstances it is not a good idea to have non-standard procedures and be trying to remember/follow them, all whilst having to deal with Tiffies/Apaches suddenly racing up alongside you and trying to figure out where you are and what to do.

I understand that national security is a primary concern, however from the pilot's perspective the swiss cheese effect is impossible to ignore, and that things might end up being made worse by enforcement of non-standard, well-known procedure.

I sincerely hope it doesn't happen to anyone, however the potential's all too great for someone inexperienced to have a bad day, make a mistake and end up having to deal with an interception, or worse consequences; I note the specific mention of "Use Of Lethal Force". Hmm. So if a microlight gets lost and happens to be heading for Olympic Village it may very well end up with an AIM9 or a Rapier up the chuff. Is one being very slightly too silly/cynical to query at whether this is a mite extreme, and further to the point when did the UK suddenly decide to adopt Cold War-era Soviet defence tactics?

Smithy

Your assumption of a full war-footing reaction to a lost microlight is what is silly. You can expect a very graduated response starting with visual identification of the bogey, then encouragement to turn away. It would take a very determined lost PPL to continue boreing on towards the park with an armed helicopter twenty yards from the cockpit and possibly a warning shot across the nose. The aircraft would have to demonstrate a credible and immediate threat to get the kill and for anything eminating from a flying club would most likely be investigated by a support helo with a heavy machine gun not a missile armed Typhoon. I don't think it's going to be like Guy Fawkes' night, despite what the more hysterical believe.

The main problem with non-standard intercept procedures is pilots of non-UK based aircraft not recognising / understanding them.

Despite all the published precautions, they would not necessarily be certain of stopping a determined terrorist with suitable aviation training and skills, by using helicopters or fighter jets. One can only hope they can plug the gap in the middle, if (God forbid) needed.

Won't (can't) happen.

Yes but the Q was what about IMC.

The interception procedures date back to c. post-WW2 and are intended for jets which spend 99% of their time in VMC, and if not identified they are (Cold War era etc) a fair game for shooting down and everybody accepts that.

abgd,

Why not?

Very big gun !
 

For those of you who think this is all a bit of a joke I can assure you that the RAF are taking this all very seriously.

Any light aircraft who enters the zone without clearance can expect to be met by a Puma, you can expect the crewman at the door to show you a large board with instructions.

If you fail to comply with these instructions you are likely to find yourself on the business end of a very big gun. One round from this is likely to stop you Lycoming leaving you to find a large open space to land on.

I would recomend Wormwood Scrubs, it will be convenient for the prison!

Sorry, I was being a bit cryptic there. If you flew a helicopter that close to a microlight the turbulence would knock it out of the sky - they're not a good mix and the combination has killed a few hang-glider pilots over the years.

I don't know whether you could safely get a helicopter within hailing range of a microlight or paramotor.

Is anyone taking this as a joke? That's not the impression I get.

Just a thought....wouldn't it be a bit silly to shoot down a rogue airliner over London?!

Significantly less silly than allowing it to hit its target.

Isn't that the reason for the military presence? to assess how silly it is? or not silly as the case may be:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Defense in depth
 

The whole concept is defense in depth, the fast jets deal with the fast moving suspect aircraft a long way from the olyimpic site, the slow movers are intercepted by the helicopters and the missiles catch anything that gets past the first lines of defense.

As I have said before I am glad that I did not have to write the R.O.E. and am even more pleased I will not have to put them into practice.

If some bimbler gets lost non-radio non-transponder in IMC, or flying VMC between layers or between buildups, and bimbles in the wrong direction, somebody is going to have to make some awfully hard decisions.

Peter, the scenario you describe is exactly the one I am concerned at.

Pboyall - Very well put.

Torque Tonight - I suspect you are largely correct re: the response to a lost bimbler, however I am very concerned at some of the rhetoric being used in the sake of "security", especially talk of "Lethal Force", snipers in helicopters and aircraft carriers in the Thames. Certainly some of the rather extreme rhetoric produced by Das Guvernment with regards to security procedures, intercepts etc. seems to imply very clearly that a stray aircraft will likely be Fox Two'd.

We can't criticise the military, they are doing their job under orders from the buffoons in Whitehall, Wesminister and Downing Street.

My better half who hails from The Saff will thankfully be well away from it when the time comes. She already said all the nonsense is going to make life unbearable for everyone there and has decided to move away. Well away!

Smithy

Got to feel sorry for you guys that have to fly in the Atlas zone. I occasionally foray into those regions but it's no big deal for me to avoid it for a month or so. Would be feeling a bit miffed if I was based down there. I think I would just bugger off on holiday somewhere. (Which as it happens I am anyway.)

I hope someone seriously includes the costs of all the commercial activities that WON'T be happening during these Games from the cooked-up totals of the supposed benefits are published.

The OP has picked up on what probably is the most likely cause of R112 infringements during the period of operation. No-one has mentioned it through any of the briefings I'm aware of or the published material.

An intriguing and intelligent point.

The only positive outcome is that the interceptor, once appraised of the real nature of the situation, may actually be in a very good position to HELP the infringer, but this is premised on ability to see them and the "lost" VFR a/c to maintain control.

Let's hope it's not something that becomes real.

Someone should be thinking it through though and it would be good for hear a clarification from Atlas.

Jesus! This thread should be in Jet Blast!

The idea of a puma as an interceptor! Heck! A puma couldn't intercept a Piper Cub unless it was in the same postcode and at the same half of the day. And the idea of it carrying "a big gun"! Bwahahaha! Crew showing noticeboards??!! What are people smoking???

light Cessnas as a threat to national security? This is a development of the concept that killer mice armed with parsley are threatening our battleships, is it?

Oh dear. Paranoia coming on badly, isn't it? I'll just go take a breath of real fresh air (ie the sort without hallucinagenics in it) and cultiver mon jardin, non?

Just what Im doing. I live in NE London and am moving down to the West Country over the Olympics. Dunkeswell or Compton Abbas will be getting my cash for a few weeks.

What people forget is that as far as AQ are concerned even a failed attempt is a win. It doesn't matter to them whether they pile into the Olympic Stadium or wipe out a housing estate being shot down.

What they are trying to do is to disrupt our normal way of life and looking at the security measures they are making a good start.

We have to assume that any and all threats are genuine as we can't afford a single failure. They can afford many failures.

Perhaps my memory is playing tricks but I seem to recall a more grown-up attitude during the IRA campaigns of the 70s/80s where we also had regular killings and bombings in London and elsewhere.

An F16 has a Vs of the order of 150kt, depending on loading.

There are intercept videos on youtube with F16s flying along airliners and the F16 had to break off because the stall warner was going off continuously as the 737 slowed down to its Vref of ~140kt.

What is the Vs of the Typhoon? It can't be that much different, though I suppose the powerful fighter jets can fly awfully slowly on the back of the curve :)

Crikey, thought it was a lot lower than that. I've seen HUD film of F15 approaches and they are touching down around the 110kt mark.

Apologies... just looked up an email from somebody who knows. Vref, well loaded with stuff to shoot at people, is 155-160kt.

That suggests Vs is about 120+ kt. But you can't actually fly at Vs, usefully.

Agaricus, how little you know. The fast jet boys' egos were very deflated when the only real interception for the G8 at Gleneagles a few years ago was achieved by the rotary mates. The big guns affixed to our airframes were more than capable of ruining somebody's day. And it's not that Cessnas are a particular threat, it's about identifying unknown aircraft and reacting accordingly. Not a difficult concept.

Robin, aircraft crashing out of control in built up areas and possibly in many bits, historically results in fairly light casualties on the ground. We all know the results of airliners used as weapons successfully hitting their targets. The decision to shoot down an airliner is certainly a case of the lesser of two evils. You are right that the terrorists score a victory either way: either they carry out succesful atrocities or the force us to accept enormous inconvenience and loss of freedom in order to defend against it.

How are these Typhoons suppose to be used for interception if their stall speed is higher than most GA cruise speed?

Obviously you haven't read the published information Liam. The stall speed of a helicopter with a big gun hanging out each door is what exactly? Perhaps the Typhoons are to guard against the faster moving threats.

Like the SR22s ;)

G-XX from Apache on your left hand side, steer heading 180 degrees, engage autopilot and sit still please.

It might sound a silly question, but I wonder about the logistics of following something flying on your left, especially when flying through the wake at close range may prove fatal.