Well said Genghis

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


Why can't aviators be aviators? Reminds me of the Life of Brian where you get the People's Popular Front of Judea infighting against the Popular Front of the People of Judea etc.

Ooops, sorry, Chris N! meant to address the mention of Booker to the OP, r44heli.

And if you think glider pilots vs. GA vs. microlites etc is a problem, wait until you get involved in your local club politics! o dear.

I have a theory. In order to have the confidence to be a solo pilot, you are most likely to have a robust ego, and be of the male gender. Amazing that the human race has ever managed to cooperate at all, but we do. Nevertheless primitive emotions arise when strangers trespass on our tribal territory.....Enstone has been livid when glider pilots thermal away from the approach; any club running a winch operation wonders if the PA28 wandering through their overhead is aware we might have just launched a heavy two-seater and a braided steel wire is strung between it and the winch....the glider in such case has a very limited view because its nose is up in the air and the flight path near as dammit is vertical.

But we always welcome visitors from the dark side. PPR.

I have the impression that most power operations are commercial, certainly in the US of A most gliding clubs are commercial (that's why they don't usually let you fly their gliders x-country). To expect volunteers to do all the work in your gliding club....well, it is sad but true that a certain number will be too busy to help out.....amazing how many DO help out, but always the same old few. Perhaps all flying clubs should be operated on a commercial basis; the only sure way to get most people to work is to pay them.

In effect, r44heli, power pilots who have the opportunity to tow up gliders manage to rack up quite a few hours and a lot of takeoffs and landings, which to any pilot interested in hourbuilding has a certain value. It is not usually difficult finding a tuggie, they fight for the privilege....

I'm not trying to be horrible, but it's often not very pleasant being towed by "power" pilots. Their biggest weaknesses are an inability to read the sky and a lack of understanding of glider performance. They often have some "interesting" habits as well. To be one, you really have to be a "glider" pilot first and foremost and also at most clubs there's rarely a shortage of drivers. It could well be that the driver is an airline pilot, an IT engineer or (god forbid) a banker. But they are at the club to fly gliders, not tugs. So when your average (and I'm not say you are) PPL pitches up, he'll generally have little to offer so gets short shrift. However, as a gliding club member who glides...

PM

In my time instructing at flying clubs I had always taken the view that Genghis takes and have given anyone who wants to fly a warm welcome as a fellow aviator.

I started aviating in ATC gliders and would have liked to return to gliding, Unfortunatly the attitude shown to me has put me off the idea.

Gliding in the UK is slowly dying with club memberships falling and no new blood getting into the sport, from my experience I can see why people are put off.

Membership is going up where I fly, and we have a lot of power pilots as members. Most are GA pilots, a few fly for BA, BMI, Easyjet & so on. Dunno where you went, maybe another club would be more welcoming?

Aerotow incidents.
A couple of years ago. Busy aerotow queue. The chap with the cable was chatting whilst attaching it. to my glider.
Brakes closed and locked, up slack, all out. At about 40knts we lifted off and the brakes immediately popped open dropping us back on the tarmac - which closed the brakes again.
This repeated about 4 times before i pulled the release. The tug hadnt reached flying speed all through this.
No danger, no damage just my very red face.
Memo to self - DO NOT allow myself to be distracted whilst doing checks. Air brakes were closed but not locked.

I started on gliders did a Silver C conversion to PPL, became a Tug Pilot, joined the RAF, left the Service in the late eighties boom and eventually ended up in the LHS of a B737. I think the experience of tugging in a busy circuit was invaluable and the situational awareness was always useful.

It's certainly fairly dangerous - especially near the ground. I learned to be quite ruthless with the glider near the ground. If the glider pilot got too high then they were on there own.

As regards gliding clubs they are funny places and usually riddled with incestuous politics. Becoming a tug pilot means having a face that fits. Or, to be more practical about it, you have to able to fit in with how a gliding club operates - and they are all different.

I recall it being very political as to how many tows you were allowed to do on a given day. There was always the odd bugger would just hog the tug for most of the day only to be prised out with a lot of grumpy gesticulating.

Gliding and tugging were probably my 'salad days'. The pub crawls round the village pubs on a Saturday night were great fun too!

cumulus rider, been there, got the T-shirt! I was flying a 150 hp Supercub, with a climb prop, not bad performance. The glider was a K13. There was hassle and delay before the launch, we had been asked for noise abatement to choose another takeoff direction. So we had to wait for the winch cables to be withdrawn.

I was getting impatient and irritated. So made my own bed, so to speak.

When we finally got take up slack signal from the wingtip holder, I was not gentle. Bit of a yank, actually. Full power. Lifted off nicely like the cub always does, but rate of climb was NOT VERY GOOD. Possibly because we were no longer taking off directly into wind? T's and P's OK, engine sounded fine, and then, I looked in the rear view mirror.......

The K13 airbrakes had popped full open. I am towing a shed.

Now the BGA in their wisdom recommends at this point, the tuggie having realised the glider airbrakes are open, that you waggle your rudder.........!!@%&*!! No way Jose, my airspeed is below 50 knots, and we are staggering, you think I'm going to waggle my rudder as a signal? We were climbing, barely, just, and did get over the earth bank at the end of the runway, I carried on to 300 feet, so the glider should have been OK to land back, and by that time my knees are trembling in weakness and funk. So I pulled the yellow release. And still quivering, came back and landed.

But where was the glider? noplace I could see. Not on the airfield! The instructor of course had taken over when I dumped them, and neither instructor nor student realised that the airbrakes were open, they just thought they were in terrible sinking air.....and not until they were approaching the small field that destiny had selected for them, did they realise....brakes already deployed! So they walked back in through the gliding club gate. And the towrope was still attached to the glider. No damage, no injury.

Of course, I had to write a report of the incident. Managed to write the whole story, just like now, without mentioning that the tug pilot, the instructor, and the student were all women....never would have heard the last of it.

cats_five & Caractacus
 

I see what you mean about Gliding club politics and that is part of my reason for steering clear of gliding.

One incident really summed it up for me a few years back.......... Quite late one Friday night the chief engineer of a gliding club called me, he had been working late to get a Robin tug ready for a comp that the club was running and had disturbed some flying controls that needed a duplicate inspection from another licenced engineer. He asked me if I could go do the inspection on Saturday morning so that the club had all the tugs avalable first thing.

So as the guy had helped me out in the past I showed up as requested first thing on the Saturday, as I walked into the hangar I was greeted by some bloke who in his best Anglo-Saxon told me that the club was private and that I should as he put it efff off.......... No "excuse me this is private" or other such polite requests for a stranger not to bein the clubs hangar, just a stream of abuse.

As you might guess I was half way across the car park before this idiot was told that he had in effect grounded a tug for the weekend and that he needed to catch me and eat a lot of humble pie if the rest of the club was not to find out why they were one tug down.

If this was one isolated incident I would have brushed it off but it is not, I wish I could say more about the latest incident but it might yet end up in the courts so I had better not say anything.

The thing that really gets to me is that what little gliding I have done indicates that it is a really fun sport, I just can't understand why these people have to play politics rather than enjoying the flying?

I have never encountered anything like this in other forms of aviation.

I've been an active tow pilot in two different clubs in the states. Have not seen any of the politics described above. Over here it is just fun. Every stranger is treated as a potential new member or as a potential customer for a commercial ride. It is the kind of place I like to bring my kids to.

I was recruited into my first club as a tug pilot with no glider experience. They converted and taught me. It worked out good for everybody.

I have had somebody pop their airbrakes by accident. He was out to do a long x-c and was a bit keyed up. I thought about wagging the rudder, then called him on the radio instead. The orange went away and that improved the climb quite a bit. I had one self-inflicted loss of performance when I forgot to put the carb heat back in. I had an RS-15 behind the super cub and we did not climb great until I figured out my mistake.

I think tugging is the best duty in a club. It is all flying, and it is good proficiency flying but with a mission. Tugging (or towing as we call it here) has kept me in aviation when a lot of my friends have moved on. I plan to get the commercial glider rating this year so I can do ride duty too, but I will always tow. Instructing is in my future, hopefully I can teach my kids.

Our new home page:
Harris Hill Soaring Center

-- IFMU

The gliding clubs which I belonged to all required their tug pilots to have at least Silver C gliding standard. Quite rightly so in my opinion. A non gliding tug pilot tends to give poor value for money, let alone lacking the situational awareness and anticipation of the movments of the non engined aricraft operating from the airfield.

I've done a bit of tugging and suffered quite a few missed heartbeats as a result. Personally, if I'm spending all day on a gliding airfield, I would rather fly the gliders. I left the tugging to those who enjoyed it more and those who were hours building.

What I actually meant was nothing to do with politics and everything to do with size and organisation - or lack thereof. They range from tiny clubs with 30 members up to one with 700 or so.

Gliding clubs are also usually rather sensitive about a strange face being airside or in the hangers - we have no idea who they are, if they are aware of the dangers, or might be looking to thieve stuff. Of course they might simply be a spotter looking for more G regs but one never knows. Your experience was unfortunate, but I image the chap who was rude had no idea who you were, hadn't been told to expect someone turning up, and was possibly at the end of a hard week at work. He might also have been the most bad-tempered person in the club but the only one that could do that particular job. That's the downside of volunteer organisations - it can be Hobson's choice about who one gets to do the jobs that needs doing.

A&C, I am truly sorry you have had more than one unfortunate encounter with the less tactful members of any gliding club. We do have our quota of rude or eccentric individuals, who unfortunately sometimes are put in positions of responsibility before we realise that they may not be the best choice...

If they were paid and did a bad job we could always sack them! Asking volunteers to go elsewhere is always awkward at best.

Which goes back to my point in my earlier post.....most power flying clubs are commercial operations.

A&C, actually you have posted three times about the rude treatment you have received at gliding clubs, and suggested that numbers are falling and we are all getting old and dropping off the perch as there is no new blood....
Of course the power clubs teaching youngsters to fly are doing well? how many have gone up the swanee lately? More likely with the recession biting, and avgas prices through the roof, only the wealthy can afford the pleasure of learning to fly. Kids who might attend ATC may also have different priorities.

Aaaaargh. NOT SO!! Only those who are wealthy and those who are not wealthy but don't smoke, drink, or have any other hobbies can afford to fly. Basically anyone in reasonable employment, and I don't mean 50K a year but national average or even less.

It all depends on your priorities. I get fed up to the back teeth with the 'rich men's toys' attitude, anyone can fly if they give up their three foreign holidays a year and the new car in the drive.

The original question was...
The BGA's document
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clu...rotownotes.pdf
may be of interest. I think that it addresses much of the original query.

If you think gliding clubs are riddled with politics then try any branch of the British Sub Aqua Club!

However to anyone who has been made unwelcome by a gliding club member, I'm afraid the gliding world has roughly the same ratio of d***heads as society in general and I apologise on their behalf

I too am sorry about A&C's experiences, but that kind of rudeness is very rare in my experience. The worst thing about my club (Essex) is the risk that the CFI and I break out with a burst of ukulele playing. And we have a special scheme for PPLs who want to try gliding, so it's a mixture of good and bad.

Much more likely is being ignored, because many glider pilots seem shy of speaking to strangers. No idea why, but it's surprisingly common. Just march up to the centre of activity (usually some kind of control caravan) and say that you fly, at which point someone will always recognise a kindred spirit and show you round.

I think it applies to any club with humans in it actually.

Wow - I did not intend open the old can of worms about clubs and their sometimes inane politics. Slightly close to topic, I have been a member of a couple of R/C model flying clubs, and they sometimes have extremely complex political issues. Some committee members seen to think they are god-like and run the clubs as if they owned them, when really all the bog standard member wants to do is go fly their aircraft and have a bit of fun.

I learnt to fly both fixed wing and heli at White Waltham and the club there, in my opinion, is pretty damn good. Great instructors, good aircraft choice, lovely airfield, and a good social scene.

Thanks everyone for the interesting postings.

Absolutely. I am doing it on a pension. Ex working class, not an ex stockbroker. Own a/c, LAA, 18litrs hr, fly when I like. X reg car which I'll fix as required. Wealthy my ass.

Some close encounters may look entertaining with hindsight, but all power pilots flying near or over active gliding sites must be aware of potential hazards. Same as skydiving sites, especially operations out of mixed activity GA airfield.

True, mishaps can happen and it's not just the open airbrakes stuff.
Canopy popping open at the wrong time, diverting the attention of surprised early solo pilot can easily cause accident. Just like the one I heard of last summer, while ago in the US, where the tuggie didn't make it.

I don't want to scaremonge, but whoever decides to do tugging, must be very cautious, especially with early solo pilots at the back end of rope close to grond and first 500 ft or more.

I'm a weekend tuggie at a small UK club, being a tuggie has two extremes - boredom because no one wants a tow (although I'll fly a glider if no one wants a tow) or intense flying having to have eyes on stalks to spot gliders as you're returning to the airfield.

Tugging has been described to me (by someone with 20K+ tows) as the most dangerous job in flying due to all the aforementioned things that can go wrong.

There's also an emphasis on economical flying to maximise fuel and airframe/engine time.

Rewarding though when you have reasonable day and the Pawnee's fun to fly (in an agricultural way).

7700

+1 - never had anything to do with fixed wing gliding, but I was simply bemused by my 'welcome' at the few r/c clubs I've been to. And they wonder why the average r/c flyer is competing with Methusulah.

In general, only a minority of individuals are to blame, but in practice they tend to dominate.

I have enjoyed reading a lot of the comments in this thread...
As a Silver C / NPPL I am interested in getting the tug pilot thingy written on my PPL(A) when I upgrade...
Biggest problem is logistical! My 100kg body mass makes a K13 fall(?) into the non aerobatic category, so the more demanding exercises are a no-no.
Current practice is doubly hard to attain if you are one of but two club winch drivers, the whole Tweedledum/Tweedledee scenario threatens.
One snag about being aware of the best bits of sky to use when climbing in tandem, is simply that someone else may have got there first... and I wouldn't guarantee seeing another glider until it was quite close! He might not see me either, under the nose.... or tail.
Rules... high speed goalposts are making aviation quite hard to follow.
Some gliding CFI's have been authorising tug pilots for many years... but they are no longer able to do so under new rules.
So, I have to get a glider pilot licence, at least 100 hours P1 for insurance purposes, and taildragger time for the Pawnee.
My first solo flight 40 years ago was on a Rollason Condor, no flaps, G-ATAU
It was simpler then....
By the way, I worked at Lasham in 1998 as a winch driver/groundsman, and the sheer size of the place and number of members (800) made for a rather impersonal feeling, nobody spoke to me until I got fed up and wore my Silver C on my overalls.... lots of nice people there, but all strangers!!

Over forty years ago I used to tow gliders for the RAE gliding club at Farnborough and for the Kent gliding club using a Tiger Club Tiger Moth. The gliders were for the most part primary lead sleds, and towing at 50kts full throttle with the oil temp rising, the complaint was always that I was towing too fast!
But what a difference towing at the Nationals with high performance machines and experienced pilots! And what crowded airspace around the release zone!

The new rules are deferred until April 2018 - in the meantime you and gliding clubs can choose whether to continue the way it was or to adopt EASA rules. There are a load of CAA derrogations that give details. Insurance - well that's another matter. In summary you don't NEED a towing rating at present. Your club's CFI or nominated deputy (i.e. usually the Chief Tug Pilot) can train you and let you loose when you reach the required standard.

Some 7-day a week clubs are more interested in weekday tuggies with limited gliding because they sometimes have difficulties filling their weekday rosters. Weekends it is a different matter with plenty of aeroplane pilots with gliding experience.

Having trained tug pilots with and without prior gliding experience my experience is that most power pilots can adapt to the different environment easily if properly briefed etc., whilst some just don't have the aptitude.

There's a little difficulty with our little club... no tug, ergo no tugmaster, CFI is very probably not able to give authorisation should I turn up with an aircraft with towing gear!! Talk about small puddles, I'm the frog with the NPPL and maybe the only member in current power practice.
Under the old rules, 15 tows between tug pilot and glider pilot was a minimum requirement.

So if I turn up with a Robin DR300 of questionable vintage and a rope, is it gonna be legal for me to tow out of a field I have not yet landed on..... answers on the back of a matchbox please!

I spent many years at KGC, about 1985 to 1998 before it got political, then got a day job at Lasham! Anyone who flew Tiger Moths at Kent must have a close knowledge of the trees around the site.....

I don't know where the figure of 15 comes from. The BGA rule for years was, "The sum of the tows made by the tug pilot and the glider pilot, in their respective capacities, shall not be less than six." So as long as the glider pilot has 6 tows under his/her belt the tug pilot needs none!

If the CFI is satisfied that you are suitably qualified and are a member of the same club as the glider pilot (a legal rquirement) he can authorise you.

In practice the sensible thing to do is go with your tug to a gliding site that does aerotow tow and do a few dual tows with one of their check pilots to gain/regain currency in towing as necessary. Whether you have towed out the the site before is irrelevant. Most tug pilots have pitched up at another airfield and done some tows - either on request or to do retrieves. Usually a briefing on the local area (especially noise sensitivities) is all that is needed.

As I understand it.... NPPL holders can tow gliders. Nothing gets written on the licence.
EASA licences have entries for extra items.
Unless the gliding club CFI is qualified to the new licensing standards, he/she cannot certify competence, the fees payable to qualify have deterred many suitable candidates from becoming examiners....
Come 2018, there will be a bit of a problem, and betcha the date gets pushed back again!!!
If you have PPL(A), you may have difficulty getting a towing rating, so you will have to get an NPPL to fly the tug...
Unless you have an FAA licence maybe??

The figure of 15 tows was a club requirement perhaps, the 6 tow thing is a bit of an historical item!! That was introduced after a few fatal upsets.... maybe in the '30's.
I believe our current CFI was given special permission to act as such at a single, winch launch only site, and has no power flying licence.
Aerotow launches have to be arranged on occasion for exercises such as full spin training, otherwise club members have to travel to other clubs for instruction! A tug and driver must be obtained, it would be easier to hire a tug for the day with a resident member flying it.

Even if you have an EASA licence PPL(A) or LAPL(A) you don't need a towing rating on it in the UK before 2018.

Under current rules clubs decide who can teach towing. Under EASA you only need to have a PPL(A) and a Class Rating Instructor Certificate Restricted to teaching towing to teach EASA licence holders. Once the teaching is completed there is no test you just get the rating added to your licence. The syllabus is neither complicated nor long. Tug pilot must have experienced 5 tows in a glider, and ten in the tug - of which 5 must be dual and a briefing that takes less than a day.

To get my CRI(Restricted to teaching towing) I only needed a letter from my CFI stating that I already did it - he is not a power pilot. I got the ratings to tow based only on experience - using aeroplanes on my PPL and using TMGs on my LAPL(S).

It really isn't a big deal. The BGA did excellent work in persuading EASA to keep it simple.

The requirements for converting existing BGA tugpilot qualifications into EASA ratings are explained here, sections J & K at the bottom of the page. (This page was written some time ago, before the extension to the derogation; references to 2015 should be read as references to 2018.)

Basically:

• have qualified as a tugpilot at a BGA club
• have at least 30 hours & 60 TOs & landings PIC in the relevant class of aeroplane (SEP or TMG)
• 10 flights tugging as PIC at a BGA club

All you need to convert is to find an appropriate person (either CFI, club chairman or club secretary) to certify on your application that you meet the requirements.

The CAA & BGA have pragmatically agreed that pilots may continue to operate to the old, pre-EASA rules, even if the pilot holds an EASA licence, at least until Apr 2018. You can still fly as a tugpilot without holding an EASA tow rating, a tugmaster or any other pilot may continue to instruct potential tugpilots without holding an FI or CRI certificate.

A bit sad to see it all bound up in so many rules.
In my opinion one of the finest flying experiences was to be towed by a tug pilot who knew a thermal when he felt it. A tug / glider combination climbing efficiently in a tight and turbulent thermal is a fine example of trust and teamwork. This would only happen when both pilots knew who the other one was, and their skill level.

true enough. If you as tuggie know that the glider pilot behind you is well experienced, it is quite fun, on encountering a useful thermal at 800 feet, to turn in the lift until he decides he is fed up following you round.

If a winch only club needs a tug from another club, it is usually brought round by a qualified tug pilot. If the club has no tug, any owner of a towing aircraft would rightly be reluctant to let an inexperienced PPL use it.

As far as towing from strange fields, we would do it no problem. If it was a farmers field, I was very reluctant to let our tug retrieve a glider from anything but an airstrip. Bolder tuggies may do so, but get really pissed off if the farmers field turns out to be less than safe. Like boggy, up hill, tall trees, high crop, nervous animals, invisible phone wires, etc.

The average PPL needs experience, to be a good tuggie. For a glider pilot to be called experienced, really a silver c is a minimum. That's FIVE HOURS ENDURANCE WITH NO ENGINE, GUYS. Also gain of height, 1,000 meters from lowest point, and 50 kilometer cross country flight. Local soaring? you havn't really experienced cross country until you have landed out!

Thanks for your contributions everybody!!! A little information is seeping into my brain, I think....
A quick reprise of my flying CV - power flying 40 years, gliding 30, NPPL, Silver C and 100km diploma.
The odd thing about my power flying logbook is that until recently I had more years than hours.... kept running out of money! Five sets of exams elapsed before a really minimal hour NPPL.
As a full time winch driver with about 15,000 launches I have a certain understanding of gliding clubs!
And a lot of opportunity to watch tug operations at large clubs like Lasham.
A lot of my flying was with friends who were commercial pilots and instructors, who seemed to appreciate a second opinion and another pair of hands - these hours were not instructional, but extremely educational! Pity they cannot count towards a training total.
My cloth ears inhibit a lot of my activities, instructing is difficult if you cannot pick up the words of the pupil. Learning to glide in a tandem two seater was sometimes a bit of a teach yourself activity. My friends were those who shouted at me!
If you are a gliding club tugmaster, expect to see a Deaf Old Fart on the sidelines somewhere, seeking enlightenment......

DOF, is your gliding club restricted to winch only? you seem to imply that in a recent post; I know that Camp Hill, being in a national park site, and until recently Snitterfield, do not have permission for power.
I did sneak into Snitterfield once, to pick up one of our club members who landed out there....special case. One of our paraplegic pilots.
As it was a weekday and nobody there, we just put the glider wing on a handy hay bale, and departed.

Hi Mary! Currently launching winch only.
There is a PPR power permission, and motor gliders (Falke) have been based there.... a full time tug operation has never been applied for to the best of my knowledge!
On a few occasions visiting motor gliders have been observed to depart with a K13 behind them.... the strip is best treated as a rather one way street, uphill with a Robin into a SW breeze there's about 5-600 metres allowing for obstacles ahead, turning to clear trees takes one over rooftops! Downhill to NE 900 metres or so.... no contest!
More people should try winch driving... flying a glider from the outside!!!
It's kite flying with big boys toys, speed judgement is a definite matter of experience and feedback, sometimes verging on the obscene...
Got to go and mow the grass, have fun!

Aaaahhhh...
The craft of winch driving. A smooth take-up slack. It's quite addictive, and very satisfying to get it right every time. Especially when you had vintage gliders and modern types in the mix - not visible on the wire until they were airborne.

Slightly off topic... I learnt my winch driving on a field with a bump.... a K8 would often be in full climb attitude before becoming visible!
Just like fishing, what we got on the line now then...
Sometimes launching gliders with no assistance..... or signals...
A 25 metre ASH 25 by feel alone was a bit of a thrill!!
About 15,000 launches and 30 years later, every launch is still a matter for careful consideration and constant assessment of speed, attitude and sound effects from the winch!
Thinks - if airliners were assisted by winch, they would need a lower number of engines.....

Its fun to watch the novice winch drivers assume everything is a K21 and flinging K6's in to the air like they were paper bags. I saw this happen to the winch-master at my old club, he pulled off as he was going through about 70kts and used ground effect to fly all the way down the field, hop out and give the winch driver a rollicking :D He bought the beers that night.