plans vs sat nav
 

Hey,

Just a question.

I just bought air nav pro and flew to wellesbourne yesterday

I planned flight as normal paper and maps etc and had sat nav running next to me.

My friend came up from another field and im sure he only used sat nav so heres the question... Who uses the traditional method? Is it just me?
Or do people use sat nav and just keep a map and cross reference although using gps as a main source?

Chart first, gps as backup. There's a requirement to carry an up to date chart, it's there anyway so I'd use it. Gps is nice to have, but having a background in space physics I have a tiny niggle of mistrust in them.

Oh my goodness that will stir up the juices!

In my opinion technology is great. My plane has 2 garmin GNS430, 1 Garmin 296, and an Ipad with skydemon on it. If I get lost I am pretty poor.

In addition I know how to work the adf and I know how to track vor's.

I also carry a map and I find it quite interesting to look out of the window and look at ground features.

I think it is great to use all navigation features. If you can do them all and practice regularly you will be fine. I wouldnt pick one over the other.

For me its technology all the way as my primary choice. I would love to have synthetic vision. I imagine it is a great safety feature but it is currently too expensive but I am sure it will save lives over the traditional methods of nav which quite clearly dont give you the same situational awareness.

True im the same, i would feel, almost like being out without my iphone... Somewhat uneasy!

Do you plan in the way you were taught? Or do you get in, programme sat nav an have a chart double check your sat nav isnt broke :confused:

There are people with car navigation that refuse to make use of it and rely on paper street maps.

There are people that enjoy car navigation but have street maps in their glove box in case they might need them.

The average age of group #1 is probably higher than that of group #2.

Indeed, you are legally obliged to carry up to date maps, however that doesn't have to be on paper. Still, paper remains the most reliable way of compliance. I rarely use paper maps enroute but I still carry them.

What I would NEVER do is rely on an iPad as my sole source of map data. I've had the damn thing fail too often enroute, more the fault of buggy apps than the hardware. I've had the expensive certified Garmin GNS430W fail on me as well.

Well me trip to welles purne was spot on and i did plan it the way i was taught... Waypoints and resetting timer etc... On the way back i used the gps more so than my plan but i was checking that i was in the same place that my gps told me i was.... And it was spot on all the way.

If it failed i had my paper planned route but boy was it a long winded pain in the a*s way round it ( he says now he sees how easy sat nav is) :)

With the instruments we have and detailed maps and the odd "practice pan" im sure we could find our way out of trouble :p if i missed out the long winded paper planning

I just feel like im cheating on the way i was taught

It's not either/or you need both; sometimes "The Machine Stops".


REF: H0524/12 From: 2012-Mar-26 Mon 07:00 To: 2012-Mar-30 Fri 16:00
Schedule: 0700-1600
ICAO: EGTT SFC to 40000FT AMSL
GROUND AND GPS JAMMING WI 54NM RADIUS OF 5229N 00045E (STANFORD
TRAINING AREA, CAMBRIDGESHIRE). AIC P 009/2012 REFERS. CTC 0207453
6530/6535 OR STANTA RANGE CONTROL 01842 855235. 12-03-0017/AS 4

Wow good point...

3D synthetic vision (uncertified) is available as part of the PocketFMS app currently in the Android Market (erm..Google Play! now!) and shortly the Apple app store.

I gave up drawing lines on maps years ago for flying in Ireland. If I go further afield, I will draw a line on the chart.

In all cases I will have a plog, even the most simple of flights, because my GPS software (PocketFMS) will produce that plog for me with no effort, along with a list of all the freqnecies that I need.

I always carry a paper chart though (though giving consideration to only carrying a digital chart in the future, with a second digital backup). So if for some reason GPS is unavailable, I still have my plog, and paper chart.

If you choose the right GPS/flight planning system combination, then producing your plog and 'programming' the GPS are just one task one two. So having your plog is no more effort than just using GPS.

As for which one is primary, and which is secondary is a mute point. Know where you are according to both. If one is suggesting that you are somewhere different than the other is suggesting, then figure out which is right and which is wrong!

Most likely the GPS is right, but they can lose signal, freeze up or have the incorrect route put in! However your GPS is unlikely to continue functioning, updating your position, heading and speed, and show you in the wrong position! Most unlikely indeed!

Most errors when using GPS seem to be in vertical navigation.

Thanks dublin makes complete sense as do all the comments

I guess im just trying to get out of doing my vfr planning sheets!

I use the whole shooting match. I have the map marked up, the stopwatch hanging off the yoke, the ADF and VOR's tuned in, a SkyDemon plog and the GPS on. The stuff is there to use so use it, the most you have to do is reach over and tune in and get an ident, it's not rocket science. Having said that I can get back home purely visually now up to about a 50 mile radius from the airfield, which is handy if all of my electrics go pop, the GPS gets jammed, the E2 explodes and the map blows out of the window.

I had my first flight exactly a year ago and I remember getting lost in the circuit once....totally lost the runway. I'm off to Breighton on Saturday and could probably get there blindfolded now. Amazing what a year does.

Do both
 

If the technology is there then use it. I fly conventional cockpit as well as glass cockpit And the planning always start with the chart. I wouldn't want to find myself in a situation where solely trust GPS. Have a back up plan like using VoR or ADF. Get the freq down for all nav aids just in case.

I've had one update the position but lose the direction, showing me pointing north whatever the real heading was. I didn't bother to look at what groundspeed it was telling me whilst it was in this mood!

Yes indeed, you're paying money to haul all this kit around, you might as well switch it on and tune it. (Though I have to admit I don't always bother to turn on the GPS.)

Unless it is the one in the Ipad2 :)

Somehow that manages to do stuff I have never seen on a GPS before. Or maybe that is just the app (Memory Map).

If you really feel that way, I suggest a cure would be to attend one of the utterly gripping lectures put up by the Royal Institute of Navigation :E However to get in you will need to dress up like this

http://www.costumes.org/history/quicherat/HenriIV.JPG

(I could not find a pic properly showing the obligatory sock full of sand which you stuff down the front of your trousers)

Haha ;) :D

The gps i intend to use more often would be air nav pro on an ipad 2 with the gns 5870 (i think if i remember correctly)
With an ipad 2 kneeboard

I would also have the same software on my iphone 4 stuck on side window

And of course my chart

Im feeling from responses that i should just use sat nav a primary and have a chart with my line and go with the flow... Im never too far away from a vor adf any way

I don't know if AirNavPro can produce plogs of you or not. If it can, then print it off and bring it with you.

Not rely on ANP to show the correct airspace boundaries...double check with your chart.

Always know where you are on the chart, so that if you need to you can quickly swap over to using the chart.

Apart from that, your approach seems sensible to me.

I think most people who use a GPS use it to establish their position on the printed chart.

That is the most sensible simple way to go about it.

The next best thing is to have the "printed" chart running as a GPS moving map. This capability has been about only recently (mostly due to map copyright issues, etc) but now there are numerous products which will give you that. Then you never need to actually look at the paper chart (I have that "system" for the whole of Europe, and the printed charts stay on the back seat, and in some cases I will carry only small sections of them, printed off as required).

The next stage is to run a GPS moving map which shows the ground and the airspace as dynamically generated shapes. This is what the old "aviation" GPSs do (again for historical reasons to do with Jeppesen effectively owning the databases) but IMHO most of the traditional ones (e.g. Garmin 496) are rubbish at it, with loads of clutter and no easy way to see the vertical airspace extents, especially on a small screen. The newer programs (PocketFMS, Skydemon) do this a lot better, but it works well only with a reasonable size screen, say 8" diagonal.

But regardless of how you actually navigate enroute, there really is no reason not to use a computer to knock up the plog, pre-flight. I have been using goode olde Navbox Pro for that, ever since the day I got my PPL in 2001. It is simple, has near-useless map representations (no good as a GPS moving map, although it will do that too) but does the job fine, and has a very good European coverage, with good airport info obtainable by clicking on the airport (phone numbers, etc).

Thanks guys, thats what i will do from now.

Appreciate all the advice

Stay safe