"Contact one", any one else say that?
 

I was turning base and an inbound aircraft was descending on the dead side and then joined for the downwind. He said "G-XXXX downwind 29, contact one". i.e. he was visual with me. Im assuming its the equivalent to traffic in sight or visual with traffic. Normal to use that phrase?

Never heard it. Neither do I remember it from any training or syllabus. One more UK particularity, at best.

Not entirely sure how 'standard' it is, however I've heard it used many times when flying into rural (especially) strips, and use it myself on occasion.

I've usually heard it as 'contact one, ahead'.

Dead Side

Never used it myself but have heard it frequently at an airfield with A/G. I normally say "visual one ahead". I must admit I've never heard it at an airfield with full ATC, just smaller airfields.

He was just abbreviating "visual contact with one aircraft ahead".

I think it would be usual to say 'contact NUMBER one' etc. However, not all RT is that precise and a lot of us learnt their RT many years ago. It's a bit like the Highway Code; does everbody keep up to date with that? As long as you get the message across clearly then it doesn't always have to be by the book, although desirable. JMO

Presumably he is trying to pre-empt ATC warning him of traffic in the circuit, but the phrase 'Visual one ahead' would probably be more correct.

The word 'contact' has caused some problems in the past due to ambiguous meaning. For example, does 'contact ground' mean communicate with the ground frequency, that you are in visual contact, ie you can SEE the ground, or are in physical contact, ie are ON the ground. Of course there is also a further aviation meaning relating to magnetos. This ambiguity has been implicated in accidents in the past. In particular, I can think of a Bulldog crash involving a foreign exchange pilot, for whom English was not his first language. He was already in some difficulty, and was asked something like ' Do you have contact with ground?' It didn't end well.

As a result, in UK civil R/T contact is only used in the communicate sense. To say it in the sense above may be understood but is technically incorrect. CAP413 refers:


In the UK

meaning

with...(your details have been

passed)”.

Furthermore, 'contact' is never used by military pilots on R/T except under a very specific circumstance that does not relate to any of the examples above. Its incorrect use, particularly by light a/c pilots who are trying to sound punchy, grates badly!

Perfectly normal at our A/G field to call G-XX, Downwind, Contact 1 Ahead, contact 2 ahead etc. Just lets the other pilots know you have seen them.

You can go even further, G-XX, Downwind for runway 07, Contact 1 ahead.

It's just common sense really if it helps other people, if I'm turning base and someone calls just 'Downwind' it's OK, if they call Downwind Contact 1 ahead and I can't see anyone else I can be reassured they have probably seen me.

PS I don't see this has any bearing on an ATC unit which would be number 1 to land number 2 land, and ATC would be informing the pilot of that situation not the other way around, at an A/G field a lot of the time your information is direct to other pilots in the circuit, not a 'controller'.

I thought you were supposed to say "Tally Ho". In deep Kent, anyway :)

I was taught to use "Looking" when warned of the presence of another aircraft which I could not yet see, and "Visual" if I could. For me, using "Contact" smacks of boys' comics and Gold-bar-wearing PPl holders - all for show. :rolleyes:

DX. Correct. And in military parlance, 'visual' or 'blind' for friendlies, 'tally' or 'no joy' for enemies.

I use 'looking' when looking for traffic passed to me by ATC, but also saw one shouldn't really say that according to the GA Supplement CAP413, one should just say 'Roger G-XX' or just 'G-XX' to acknowledge a traffic call. It's a habit though.

Though this isn't where I would use contact 1 ahead, it's just in the circuit at an A/G field where the operator may well be in an office with no traffic information or situational awareness - here pilots are simply helping each other out by letting each other know they have seen each other in the circuit. Seems like a habit at our field, some use it some don't, probably depends which instructor they had or if people just pick it up by hearing it. I certainly like the benefit of it myself.

It's also better to hear than 'Rolling' which really does annoy me :}

I use it all the time, but reading about it here I admit it could be slightly ambiguous and confusing. I'll try to use the full Visual Contact in the future. Even Visual would be better since it can't be confused with much anything else.

Looking is much better than Roger, IMHO. Don't care what the rules say - clarity is paramount. Looking is a direct acknowledgement of traffic, whereas Roger could be agreeing to anything said up that point.

Round here, the usual phrase is "have the number one in sight" which is also a nice way to acknowledge one is not number one. It is longer to pronounce, though.

And yes indeed, this kind of information is mostly meant for fellow pilots, rather than for any radio operator on the ground. If any is available, at all.

As military traffic is on 243, why should they give a f**K?

Also, they are probably more concerned with trying to see through their dirty windscreen, than playing the radio police.

But how do you know you have the #1 in sight? A dangerous assumption to make.

is perfectly acceptable R/T and means what it says.

Is complete and utter bollocks, if you must use military R/T the correct phrase is , but it means absolutely nothing in the civilian world.

Any airfield, instructor that teaches or encourages non standard R/T or any pilot who uses non standard R/T (i.e anything which doesn't conform to CAP 413) is demonstrating their complete lack of professional standards.

As a very experienced ATCO, Examiner and pilot, the moment I hear that sort of crap it makes me question everything else the pilot does and I treat them with extra care, strictly by the book and often resulting in their embarresment.

Have no doubt about it chaps and chappesses, if you sound as though you know what you are doing, people the other side of the headset will generally believe you.
Don't and you'll generally get treated as the situation warrants.

How do you know it's "number one"? You will only know how many you have in sight.

While we're on the subject of RT I have to say I like the American way of communicating in the circuit by prefacing their calls with the aircraft type and then call-sign e.g. 'Cessna 172 G-ABCD (N123) left base 21'. This gives you a clue as to what to look for and some idea of the likely speed. I know this probably takes a millisecond more of air time and also requires some knowledge of aircraft types; but I like it!

Err, no. Military aircraft will use whatever frequency is appropriate, VHF or UHF. But as 'contact' in this sense is incorrect for both civvies or mil, that's irrelevant.

Very witty.:rolleyes:

Really?

Tornado pilot blames dirty windscreen for near-miss - The Scotsman

I was already aware of the incident. Still can't see what relevance or value it has to this thread.

Presumably you just raise it to have a pop at those with a military flying background. Never mind. Disregard any military angle on this discussion at all, and simply check the reference I provided from CAP413 which provides an official civil answer to the original question.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
Page 249 of the PDF if that helps.

I don't take a pop at those with a military background, only pompous gits from ny background.

Now find me "fly radar heading" in CAP413, please.

Well, I smiled, anyway, IO540.


CC

In deepest Kent.

F3G, You must've got up on the wrong side of bed. The gentleman asks if a phrase is normal R/T. I give him a straight answer with a reference: 'may be understood but is technically incorrect'. Thanks for your input by the way.

Read it yourself.

I agree.

Prefacing with type of aircraft is great, because not only does it inform your fellow pilots what aircraft to look for and what performance your likely to have, but it adds two more benefits: ATC can now separate visually by saying "you're number 2 after a Seneca on short final", rather than having to look that info up. Also, you can now (although not strictly correct), abbreviate by saying "Seneca turning base" etc in high workload airspace. It saves time. N- or G-numbers have very little use in spotting traffic.

It isn't there, but you knew that. What is there, though, is "report radar heading to..." which leads to this sort of confusion.

It's best not throw to stones if you live in a glass house.

As long as it is the type and not just the manufacturer - saying "Cessna" doesn't help me, unless your 152 has the same performance as the XLS that's up your hoop. The aircraft type doesn't really need to be looked up, it's right there on my strip just above your callsign.

No it isn't. Contact means precisely that - contact the one ahead ie: call the one ahead. Aircraft changing frequency to another ATZ/FIR are usually told "Contact (eg)Scottish on ..." Use of the word "contact" to convey anything else is grossly misleading.

I admit to using "Contact one on the runway" (in the hope of getting a land after clearance at an ATC field) and also (horror of horrors) using "rolling" when commencing the take off run at some yokel strip where I may consider that the locals don't have a clue what is happening and might just decide to blunder on to the runway just as I reach 60 knots. I very much agree with using aircraft type identification whilst in the air, and at busy fly-ins I also often use aircraft colour to help A/G, FIS or ATC with visual identification when taxying.

Contact has (or at least, use to have) at least 3 different meanings in the military flying world:

1. "Contact left 5 deg, 20 miles, 1000ft above" = I have traffic on radar (as stated).

2. "Contact Neatishead on TAD 123" = Call that GCI controller on (whatever UHF frequency Tactical Air Designator 123 decodes as). Although I thiink that was eventually changed from "contact" to "call".

3. "Contact, grid 123456" = there's a firefight at (wherever 123456 is).

And as for 'secure'..... "Secure the building" to a pongo means smash the door down, check the rooms are clear of hostiles. To a fishead it means lock the building up and b*gger off for the weekend. To the RAF it probably means make sure that we have the use of the building.

OT
 

I belive the RN term 'Secure' now relates to future employment for Aircraft Carrier staff. ;)

Annex 10
See UK AIP GEN 1.7
In the UK, the name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of the aircraft model, or name of the aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to the callsign.

Have to say I was so use to hearing and being taught to say 'contact 1 ahead' in the circuit that the scenario of a solo student pilot, in front getting very confused by 'contact 1 ahead' had not occurred to me.

Having said that is it really confusing? The call does not originate from a ground operator, G-XX contact 1 ahead' originates from another aircraft so, surely cannot be misconstrued as meaning 'aircraft ahead of me contact (call) the 1 ahead of you' which is an instruction and could only originate from an ATC unit. In fact someone who didn't understand it wouldn't even know they are the 'contact' being referred to. (Unless the receiving station misheard the G-XX as their own callsign - which is a another argument for another day!)

Perhaps a strong case for the CAA to clarify 'contact 1 ahead' in CAP 413, either that it is an alternative meaning for 'contact' as no ambiguity exists, or a statement that the wording should not be used in this context. It's clearly a topic that is causing some polarisation here on PPruNe and clearly the term is in common use in the context of 'visual contact with another aircraft in the circuit'.

I always love these threads about "correct" RT

- it is usually a good time to get the pop corn out as the fun and games commence. ;)

To be fair you did rather more than that. You want off one actually....

PS Ex Mil myself so save that pompous response as well please.
:p

Ha! Now that made me laugh! Although for the RAF we viewed secure as leaving some rock ape in DPM with SLR/SA80 making it look occupied while we bogged off to the mess for a dining in/out....

Why does this annoy you?

'Rolling' is not actually in CAP413. According to CAP413 you should say 'taking off, G-CD' if at an A/G or FIS field. The only other time you should say the words 'take off' is when reading back a take off clearance from ATC. Before then we only say 'ready for departure'.

However, I was told off once by an instructor for saying 'Taking Off' at an A/G field, he told me to just say 'Rolling'. Saying 'Taking Off' seems clearer to me because it is informing everyone what you are doing without any ambiguity.

Although, I must admit that since I was told off...I actually just say 'rolling' now :cool:.

I occasionally use "rolling" too. In the situation where I've been cleared for take-off, and having read back that clearance, but not able to go just yet for wake turbulence separation. (Intersection departures behind 737s are very common where I fly.) So I'm all lined up and cleared for take-off and when the wake turbulence wait periode is over, I call "rolling". I don't know what else to say, and a call like this seems to be appreciated by ATC anyway.

Technically I think I don't have to say anything though in that situation.

We did the debate on rolling only very recently but by all means do it again.

In fact I will even contribute because I didnt understand then and dont understand now why rolling could possibly annoy anyone - you know exactly what it means so why the problem - and please take that as a genuine interested question.

You shouldn't be given the clearance until it's safe, or at least will be safe when you get airborne. For example if I need two minutes for wake turbulence (or separation for that matter) I would normally give you the clearance at about 1:40 after the previous airborne time, knowing that by the time you have read it back, powered up, rolled and rotated you'll have the required spacing/separation.