PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Private Flying (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying-63/)
-   -   Val d'Anniviers Airplane Crash (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/442512-val-danniviers-airplane-crash.html)

S-Works 17th Feb 2011 13:57

I think looking at the pictures that it had quite a bit of forward motion. It was just applied at an angle due to the rise of the ground rather than nose in.

hambleoldboy 17th Feb 2011 16:56

Another crash today, this time a helicopter, near Les Diablerets. 6 on board, 4 seriously injured, no fatalities:

Sechs Verletzte: Helikopter-Absturz bei Les Diablerets - Schweiz - News - Blick.ch

QDMQDMQDM 17th Feb 2011 19:42

I'm in Zermatt and very variable winds today up high. Just before the time of this crash we changed mountains due to the high winds. Lots of orographic cloud blowing over the Theodulpass and up the Matterhorn due to a strong Southerly.

I know the area around this heli crash site extremely well and it would be very susceptible to a strong Southerly or Westerly, but whether that is relevant in this case obviously one doesn't know.

What a shame --today is the first new powder since before Xmas and so there would have been a lot of expectations (and pressure?).


such as low power Cessna Bird Dogs messing around with rising terrain and high density altitude
Englishal and IO540 I really think you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here with almost nothing to justify it. I don't quite see the point.

And for the record a Cessna Bird Dog is anything but low powered, but unless you're in an F16 then the degree of power in your aircraft is not going to make any difference in this kind of situation.

IO540 18th May 2011 08:13

Have there been any news on this very unusual crash?

No apparent forward speed, massive vertical speed.

JACQUIE356 16th Sep 2011 07:15

anniviers plane crash
 
We passed over this col recently walking the Haute Route and found a small plane door, from the baggage area. Could the loss of this cause the plane to dive?

JACQUIE356 16th Sep 2011 07:23

No, sorry we didn't. We did a google search last night to see if there had been any recent accidents and found the report from February 11th. Who should we report our findings too? we took photos and recorded it.

thanks

sycamore 16th Sep 2011 07:30

Did you report it to the Police ?

Fake Sealion 16th Sep 2011 09:15

The Baron has baggage doors in the nose, forward of the cockpit.
If one of these came adrift in-flight it could be serious?

They are quite distinct in shape - highly contoured to fit the nose profile

Mark 1 16th Sep 2011 15:43

This is probably being investigated by the BEA.

The AAIB at Farnborough will probably be cooperating in the investigation and would most likely be keen to hear your information and share it with the BEA

englishal 16th Sep 2011 15:57

I normally LOCK the nose baggage doors. If one came open then it would probably not cause any major issues (not sure about Baron but guessing they clear the prop) but if it came off then likely it would be in a prop. Who knows what would happen then.

Raiz 7th Jul 2012 16:38

Val D'Annivers crash - accident report published
 
This one shook me, because I fly there often and, indeed, I was flying in the same place a few days before the accident. Anyway, the final accident report has been published by SESA http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/2141.pdf (in French).

Rough and ready translation of the probable cause = loss of control following loss of visual references and spatial disorientation associated with an unsuccesful attempt to avoid cloud. Hit ground with practically zero ground speed, >4000 ft/min RoD, 25 deg nose down, 10 deg roll left, cruise power (possibly a spin but the report doesn't say so explicitly). Pilot was PPL/ME/IR.

Report also cites "inappropriate tactical aproach to flying" in mountainous region/weather conditions as a contributory factor.

Very sad.

peterh337 8th Jul 2012 13:16

What makes them believe he was avoiding IMC? Did he make some radio calls?

Raiz 8th Jul 2012 16:25

Peter

The report explicitly states that the pilot was not in receipt of a radio service at the time of the accident [My comment: It's class E, so there is no obligation to for VFR].

Their "logic" for an encounter with cloud seems to be (a) they found no evidence of technical failures of the a/c before the crash; (b) they found no evidence of pre-existing medical problems on the part of the pilot; and (c) the flight path suddenly changes (mid turn) from a smooth stable one to a series of sudden, "brutal" manoeuvres, which they suppose were an attempt to avoid cloud. There is then a note that the image from the St Luc webcam suggests they may have been in cloud right up to impact.

As best I can translate it (I'm far from fluent in French) the relevant paragraphs say:

The gentle right turn that was initiated after crossing the Anniviers valley is consistent with an intention to fly down the valley to Sion. [My comment:- It makes sense to return to Sion via the Anniviers valley, because you need permission to enter the Sion CTR before you reach VRP Echo 1, which is at the foot of the Anniviers valley.]

Half way round the right turn, the turn tightens and a sharp decent is started. 15 seconds later, the a/c starts a rapid climb and the turn tightens further. These abrupt changes in altitude and the extreme turn rate are probably an unsuccessful attempt to avoid a cloud mass. The pilot probably suddenly encountered instrument flight conditions whereupon the manoeuvres have caused a power-on stall, leading to a loss of control. This may be the result of spatial disorientation that often occurs with an unexpected loss of visual references. Although the pilot was qualified for instrument flight in this a/c, a sudden loss of visual references when flying VFR over very rugged terrain could be hazardous. In such a situation it is very difficult to recover the control of the aircraft.

Those final manoeuvres are described elsewhere in the report as follows:
1. Pilot initiates a gentle right turn, maintaining altitude (12,300') with a slight decrease in speed.
2. Turn tightens (at point A) and, during the following 15 seconds, the aircraft decends at a rate of almost 2000 fpm.
3. After that 15 seconds (at point B), the rate of turn tightens further and the a/c begins a rapid climb.
4. A further 15 seconds later (point C) the a/c has climbed 1350', representing an average RoC of 5,400 fpm.
5. For the next 20 seconds, the track is roughly constant and the a/c loses ~1,000' at a RoD of 3,000 fpm with low ground speed.
6. The last radar contact was 1,970' above the crash site, which was almost vertically beneath.

My guess is the a/c stalled at point C.

The weather at the crash site was estimated as wind WSW 7-10 kts, gusting 15 with possible weak turbulence, which would not, in itself, have stopped us from flying in this area (in a DR400) unless we enountered worse as we approached the mountains.

peterh337 8th Jul 2012 20:48

Interesting... many thanks for your translation.

Hard to agree or disagree, but I am not convinced, because a reasonably experienced pilot is not going to be flying in VMC (in which, at high altitude, visibility might be 50-100nm) and then suddenly decide there is cloud ahead and start doing crazy maneuvers like that.

One possibility is that at 12000ft+ he was suffering from hypoxia. Years ago, I flew with an instructor who said he didn't need oxygen, at FL120 :) After a while he could not read the altimeter, and decided it might be a good idea to use oxygen after all...

maxred 8th Jul 2012 21:16

Like everyone, when the images and circumstances of this accident were first noted on this forum, I was pretty shocked, and also was very interested to see the report, and what could have caused this accident. My French is not great, and thanks for the translations of the ' overview' , however, like Peter, I am not wholly convinced regarding the supposed cause. We must respect the investigators, however, the photograph on page 15, coupled with the web cam view, looks like he transited at a fairly constant level, it would seem that he was VFR whilst doing it, take the point about cloud obscuring the peak on the left, but why would, as alludes, go into cloud? There would be no need. Secondly, he was Instrument rated, and one would assume that if he had gone into cloud inadvertently, it should have been a controllable situation, unless of course something else was distracting him/onset hypoxia/or a passenger situation. Sadly we may never know. Is the full report available in English anywhere?

peterh337 8th Jul 2012 22:09

In essence his flight ended as AF447.

A "passenger situation" is also possible. Was the RHS an adult or a child, and if an adult, how related to the pilot?

This is a bizzare accident, so it's reasonable to examine bizzare explanations.

I have done plenty of flight over mountains, with clouds around, and one doesn't fly in a manner whereby you might suddenly find yourself in cloud.

Raiz 9th Jul 2012 06:42

The pilot and the 4 pax were connected through a common friend. Report doesn't say whether a child was in the right seat.

Shorrick Mk2 9th Jul 2012 08:14


Hard to agree or disagree, but I am not convinced, because a reasonably experienced pilot is not going to be flying in VMC (in which, at high altitude, visibility might be 50-100nm) and then suddenly decide there is cloud ahead and start doing crazy maneuvers like that.

Secondly, he was Instrument rated, and one would assume that if he had gone into cloud inadvertently, it should have been a controllable situation, unless of course something else was distracting him/onset hypoxia/or a passenger situation

Actually what the report says is that the pilot was likely flying above clouds and then started a right turn likely in order to fly down the valley and rejoin the Sion CTR entry point. Imagine a right 270 descending turn to intercept the green arrow that depicts the webcam view.

So it may well be that he was aiming for a hole in the clouds (as he had to descend down along the valley towards the CTR) and he misjudged his turn (note the report says that starting from point "A" the rate of turn increases and the sink rate as well). The pilot knew full well there were clouds ahead and below - it seems he decided he wasn't going to make the intended hole through them...

The report suggests that while turning and descending he might have inadvertently entered IMC and considering the terrain he was flying over he presumably pulled up to regain visual references and maintain terrain clearance (i.e the distraction mentioned above might have been the fear of smashing into a peak). The sharp pull up (average rate of climb 5'400 fpm between points B and C) might then have resulted into a stall.

The report further says that the PIC had only 60 hours VFR on type, so probably he wasn't very used to mountain flying and tactical planning in that particular aircraft.

maxred 9th Jul 2012 09:12

Thanks Shorrick for the additional information and translation. Yes, I can now see what you mean. At Point B, interestingly he is over a peak, which slopes away in the direction he would have been travelling. If the top of the peak had been visble through a cloud layer, then it would have given the illusion that terrain was at that level, he descending into the cloud, but he pulled up, too much, and started the chain of events that ended tragically. Full disorientation.

Very sad, and shows how, what should have been a benign VFR sightseeing flight, can go very horribly wrong.


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:08.


Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.