AHA - that makes a lot of sense. Get a night rating and an IMC and you will be able to do the same stuff as PPL holders in the rest of JAA (plus IMC landings)

I agree that Norway is difficult with high and steep(ish) ground and low cloud base, but my territory is more the low lands of Denmark


Isn't there some definition of minimum octas somewhere in the Air Law curriculum?


Anyway, sounds like IMC is a very good starting point, not least for the VMC reason IO540 states above, and if you can deal with IMC conditions in one end of the journey I guess you'll half the number of times you can't go because of weather.

Many thanks

Do bear in mind that "in sight surface" can be an airspace restriction in addition to a license restriction. For instance the Netherlands requires that in class F and G airspace, below 3000' you have to be in sight of the surface to be considered VFR.

If you can deal with IMC conditions in one end of the journey I guess you'll half the number of times you can't go because of weather.

I agree with that! Many thanks everybody :-)

Chris

At FL100 over a 3000 ft overcast, how much surface do you need to have visible to maintain attitude without reference to instruments?

Conversely are UK PPLs prohibited from night flying on long over water crossings or remote terrain (i.e. where you have no visible horizon or surface below you)?

[SARCASM OFF]

One can do all kinds of stuff and get away with it.

The #1 job is to be safe. This needs instrument skills, and a suitably equipped plane. Note that one can be legal VFR yet need to be a good instrument pilot e.g. 3000m vis, summer haze, over the sea. No horizon; it's like in a fishbowl. Night flight (on a real night) is also 100% instrument flight; Kennedy Jr found out the hard way.

The #2 job is to not get into trouble. This needs good knowledge of weather planning e.g. no good turning up above Biarritz at FL100, when the place is OVC002 and has been for days, and call up "G-XXXX inbound" off a VFR flight plan :) Anyway, airports in CAS (which is the majority of European airports with Customs i.e. those one is going to be flying to from the UK) all have VFR minima, ~ 1200-1500ft min cloudbases. None of the UK business of departing say Goodwood "VFR" under OVC005 ;) There are specific "VFR" arrival tricks for coastal airports in plausible VFR conditions e.g. OVC015, from a flight which is above a solid thick overcast (basically, you descend offshore and break cloud OCAS, before calling up the airport, and then no questions asked = no lies told) but you can't do that in Switzerland :)

Enroute, it is not an issue. It's funny sometimes to realise that with the IR I fly the same way I used to fly VFR in the past. VMC on top. But now I can cross the Alps at FL160 or whatever; previously it would be FL129 because Zurich would not let me into their precious (and totally empty) Class C with a FL130 base. Why do ATC care about VFR transits when there is nothing there? That's the big question... and it's a big part of why pilots sweat to get the IR. It gets ATC working for you (as a default position), not against you (as a default position in so many places).

That defintion of "in sight of the surface" seems barmy to me. As has been pointed out in this and other threads, one can use an overcast itself for attitude control without any sight of the surface, and night flying may not in any event mean in sight of the surface even on a gin clear night. Not to mention attitude risks associated with sloping ground or sloping cloud layers etc.

I admit that I don't actually try very hard, but only once in around twenty years have I succeeded in using my PPL to "fly places", by which I mean turn up more or less on time at a pre-planned appointment on a specific day.

I recently completed the IMCR and thought it was a great course. I mainly fly a permit aircraft so for me to be VFR on top I need holes both ends of the journey but netherless the additional VFR privilages are well worth having.

I agree very strongly with IO - I think you are wasting your time flying airways unless you have a suitable aircraft. It really is no fun being at FL 120 without an autopilot, the speed and performance relevant to legs in the lower airways, reasonable systems redundancy, oxygen and some means of dealing with limited but unexpected ice.

Of course it can be done, but that doesnt mean you should want to do it.

With regards to VFR on top......

Standard PPL privileges site VFR ie maintain clear of cloud by the margin appropriate to airspace, speed, type etc and viz requirements. So therefore VFR on top to me (and I interpret as legal requirement, but sensible also) means that you are able remain clear of cloud in the event of an engine failure. Whether legal requirement or not, pilot with no IMC training/experience since PPL course + engine failure + IMC is not a great scenario. I am no legal eagle so would not pretend my interpretation would stand in court.

A sensible view for a VFR only pilot, but not the actual law.

Remember VFR is just a set of flight rules. These flight rules are predominantly designed to minimise collision risk (with the ground and other aircraft) not to match a specific pilot's capability. It would be quite reasonable for an IR rated pilot to fly VFR over an overcast , on the other hand if the overcast is actually low very dense fog over rocky terrain it probably doesn't matter that much if you have an IR or not if you need to make an emergency landing!

FWIW.

My own Airbox 'Aware' ordered Wednesday 17th March & arrived by post this Saturday 20th morning.

No hassle, just switch on, accept usual warning by pressing the 'globe' and it finds where you are, reference the appropriate U.K. 1/2 mill. chart & simply works as promised.

Too much rain to try out in the plane today, but Spring can't be long (?).

mikehallam.

The combination of Pocket FMS on an HTC HD2 stuck on the dash (all up cost: £400 for the hardware +£100 a year including monthly updates) and a Garmin 430 built into the dash is about as foolproof as anyone needs. Pocket FMS even gives you geolocated approach plates so you can fly perfect holds without all that wobbly stuff in the wind you do with an NDB hold. Then off down the proceedure following the GPS needle on the 430, make the 180, switch to the ILS and down the crossed needles you go, with the Pocket FMS giving reassuring aditional spatial awareness along the way.

So it's horses for courses, really.