Student dual hours replace solo hours?
 

My current flight school seems to think I need to pay for dual hours even when I am solo, as I am a student. This seems a lot like typical aviation school bull to me, but is this something to do with what the CAA has stipulated and is just the way things are done?

I done my PPL at two schools, 15 hours in the first one and the rest at the second.

During my PPL training one school charged dual rates even when I was solo and the other only charged the solo rate when solo. So I cant see it being a CAA rule, more the school/instructor wanting more dinero.

Er, the difference between dual and solo rates is what it takes to pay the instructor. Whether the instructor is sitting next to you in the aeroplane or not doesn't make a lot of difference, does it, s/he's still going to want to be paid.

That sounds like bollocks to me, often the instructor will monitor more than one student at a time when they are solo. Are you a ppl training for cpl or just training for your ppl, I flew with many different schools and this is crap, don't allow it to happen, you are the customer.

While the instructor is on the ground he does not spend one hour doing nothing but monitoring you, he gets on with paper work and general tasks so you should not pay for this. There are many flight schools, so don't be strong armed into crap service.

In general terms, i have found it is more of a school rule.
some will charge the same through PPL, no matter what (by flight time) whereas others will vary their rates.
The CPL rates chargeable can vary so much and i found this can be usually negotiated to a great degree at different locations, usually in your favour.

This was standard when I was doing my PPL. The justification is that you are flying on the instructor's license.

The instructors loved it. On a busy day (not many of those) they could have several solo students doing x/c flights, and they were getting their hourly rate paid several times over, while sitting in the cafe.

I was also charged the dual rate for solo flying during my PPL training. The basis of the dual charge, when questioned, was the fact that I was flying on my instructors licence.

That was nearly twelve years ago and rates were much cheaper back then... £83 per hour dual (PA38) seems to be a figure I remember quite well. ;-)

The truth is.
 

The instructor is quite entitled to charge for supervising you while you are solo.

The reasoning, he has to stick around in order for that to work. Wether or not he has 1 or 10 students solo is trivial. He is still entitled to charge it.

Imagine if it's his day off, you ring up to ask if you can solo today. He drives down from X down to Y which takes him 1 hour and for that you are going to pay him nothing?

I can completely see the point there.

To sum it up, you are a student flying on an instructors licence. What you do wrong goes back to him and so he's fully entitled to receive his income.

I'm finding people love to get everything for nothing.

If you consider it simply monitoring, I assure you when things go wrong then it's no longer that simple.

Can you offer any examples?

As a gliding instructor I find the thread really interesting as, in the UK at least, we don't charge extra for supervision/instruction/monitoring. The "cost" of paying for an instructor is built into the overall financial model of the gliding club. Admittedly this works because most gliding operations are clubs and so are often run by volunteers rather than paid staff. At my club we have a mix of paid and volunteer instructors. This works well as it keeps the costs down (and so the charges that the student pays) whilst providing us with sufficient instructors. Don't think this model would work with a commercial flying school though!

I pointed out this anomaly to the school I trained at and they changed the wording to "Training rate / solo hire rate." In all fairness they did not charge for groundschool or briefs/debriefs.
DO.

Fingermouse,
Perhaps, when dual, as you become more competent at flying the aircraft & your instructor is no longer flying it or making many comments to correct you, he should pay you for the priveledge of of being ferried round the countryside to admire the view?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

I recall paying dual money when with an FI, solo money when solo, thought that was always the case everywhere, obviously not.

This was the same at my school; you pay the dual rate while training - regardless of dual or solo.

Bearing in mind that, dual or solo, you get 15-30mins of brief/de-brief either side of the paid flying time I don't think that's a rip-off. Added to that, for solo circuits he certainly didn't go off to do paperwork because he never missed a dodgy landing :eek:

The extra charge for training on the hourly rate for a C152 at my school was about £26 plus vat. Considering that for every flying hour paid for there is about another 45mins to an hour of ground briefing this is a darn sight cheaper than an equivalent amount of driving tuition, guitar tuition or language tuition.

To my mind, that doesn't sound like a bad deal for the student.

How cheap can you be?
 

When I instructed in the UK I got £20 per flying hour. My total round trip mileage was 214 miles per day. Working on an average of 3 hours flying per day there's not much left for food is there!

Please also remember there's quite a lot more that goes into a lesson than just the time in the air. There is all the briefings and de-briefings, all the standing around while you take a million years to pre-flight the aircraft and even longer to get the thing started, then the time wasted going back to the clubhouse because you forgot your headset or the extra hour waiting for you because you didn't come prepared. The list goes on and on!

If anything I believe instructors should get way more than they do! Stop complaining about paying dual rates when solo, this adds up to a maximum of £250 over the whole PPL cheapskate!

I paid dual rates throughout my PPL (there was no solo element to the CPL course) whether solo or not and I don't consider it unreasonable.

However, be careful when it comes to licence skill tests/170As/LPCs etc. If you are paying for an examiner, then you should not be charged a dual rate but the solo/SFH rate.

Cheers

Whirls

To supervise a cross-country must demand bloody fantastic eyesight. I suppose that must deserve a few extra bob. :ok:

I DO find it a little odd that I require no instruction as I have been ready for cross country and skills test since I arrived back in the U.K., having already completed a cross country and was going for a skills test in the U.S. when I had to return. The instructor was busy, not monitoritng, and I was told by the school that they charge dual as this is what the CAA say we have to do and every flight school has to do it (but I have never heard of anything like this before).

I checked with the CAA my requirements on return to the U.K. to become JAA PPL qualified -I would need to pass the JAA exams and complete a U.K. cross country and skills test. Simple enough. Flight school said about 10 hours should get it done. So lets do it. This is new issue though it seems so may check with the CAA come Monday..

I haven't ever paid for dual when solo before in my training so seems a little strange hence this thread to see what other pilots have experienced.



As for the insults on this page such as 'cheapskate' (not very professional, I believe good/bad training experiences and cash don't nessessarilly relate to one another as some people will just take and take and give back nothing of any use apart from hours in your log book), well I could find every CFI in the world and give them a wheelbarrow full of my money just for the hell of it, but why should I. lol are you a CFI by any chance 'Scamartist'? In fact, your name says it all, 'flaming' hell. Lets have a useful debate please

Your school is entitled to think what it likes; it has nothing to do with the CAA. The school is providing you with a Service in teaching you to fly and ensuring that it is done safely. Whilst solo, you are the responsibility of the Instructor who authorises the flight; he/she has a duty of care to you and could be prosecuted for endangerment if not executed properly. The same instructor probably provides you with ground training for which no fee is charged; perhaps it is time we joined the real world and charged for all services provided!

To solo hire an aeroplane you need to hold a licence, then you will get the solo rate, because no instructor is involved. If you don't like the rates that you pay for an aeroplane instructor, I suggest you look at what Microlight instructors charge!
Then quite possibly the school does not pay the instructor and maybe you were not receiving any supervision either!

Oh and no extras such as debrief or brief etcetera. I WAS SOLO, flying touch and goes. But is this just the way things are done?