IMCr to Jersey
 

All, am sure this has been covered elsewhere so apologies if I haven't managed to find it. I came across this thread which almost answered my question(s)

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...ainties-2.html

I am planning a tour around the UK in the summer and was hoping to pop over to Jersey for a day or two. I recently did my IMCr and the more I get into it, the more I seem to have questions!

Questions are
1. Jersey is in class A - correct? But if I am an IMCr holder, I can go IFR down to 3km vis?
2. That being the case, do I call Jersey up asap and ask for IFR clearance to the ILS when I'm crossing the UK coast (assuming I've filed a FP)?
3. Or, do I ask for VFR clearance and vectors to the ILS?

4. Separately, the IMCr allows me to fly IFR down to 1500m and yet, I can fly in (or through, I should say) clouds which are zero vis?

I know I'll be shot down for asking these questions - there will be those who despise the IMCr and those who say these kind of questions justify despising it but please try to keep personal remarks to oneself please!?

tvm.

I may be shot down in flames too here , but doesnt jersey come under french airspace ? its a while since I was down but if that is the case you wouldnt be allowed to use priviliges of an IMCr anyway??
Interested to know havent got a map to hand

I think you mean VFR. With a UK issued PPL you need 3000m for VFR but if you have an IMCR you can fly VFR down to 1500m vis.

The IMCR has no IFR privileges outside the UK, but the above ones apply worldwide. The other one which applies worldwide is that with an IMCR you no longer need to be in sight of surface when VFR.
Funnily enough, the C.I. have their own ANO and their own IMCR... I haven't got a clue whether their IMCR is mutually recognised with the UK IMCR. There are some Jersey pilots posting on the Flyer forum who might know - one called derekf comes to mind.

However I don't think this helps you with IFR in the C.I. zone because I recall their IMCR is a carbon copy of the UK one.

So, no IFR for you unless you have the full IR. You have to go SVFR.
Again I think you mean VFR not IFR. The min vis for VFR goes down from 3000m to 1500m as I stated above (and there are some concessions for SVFR which I can't remember).

IFR, when you can do it legally, has no min vis requirements (obviously).

There is that other total redherring that a UK PPL holder can fly IFR without any instrument qualification - provided the actual conditions are good enough for him to be legal VFR i.e. 3000m vis and in sight of surface :) But I don't think you are referring that, and it is a pretty useless privilege because it works only in UK Class G where nobody cares what you do anyway....

Whether Jersey is French airspace, or just during the night, I don't think is relevant. The basic issue is that it is Class A which the IMCR doesn't support for IFR. I vaguely recall somebody coming up with a contrived argument along the lines of being able to fly SVFR through the Class A and then go IFR (using the IMCR) in the Class D which is in there somewhere....

Jersey is actually in class D. But you can't get to the class D without passing through the Class A zone around it.

As an IMCr holder, you may fly only under special VFR within class A (CTRs), not under IFR. You may do so in a visibility of 3km or more.

No, you call Jersey Zone and ask for a SVFR entry clearance.

Nope, no VFR, and no vectors to the ILS. SVFR only.

Procedures are in the AIP in EGJJ AD 2.22 .

I suppose there is no reason why you can't go SVFR in the Class A, convert to IFR once inside the Class D CTR and then ask for an ILS. Of course, one would have to ask why?

Only if the UK IMCR is valid in the C.I. Class D.

I don't know - is it?

If it was legal, it is a viable option if the IMC is confined to the airport area :)

Or if you want to log an ILS approach :)

Thanks all - and yes, IO540, to log an ILS approach!

They may have their own ANO although I am not sure, but not their own IMCr. The UK issues licences for CI residents and so they hold UK JAA FCL licences and thus a UK IMCr.

They have their own ANO equivalent and it's based on the UK one so similar.
The IMCR is the UK IMCR
The Jersey 'ANO' allows for the 10k viz requirement for SVFR in Class A to be reduced to 3k if the holder has an IMCR
The old 'get into class D and try and get IFR with the IMCR' has gone round and round. Apart from the fact that the procedures include flying outside the Class D (and I know you could argue you might be able to do a short ILS but that won't cut the mustard) - think about it - how would a controller be able to vector you in the event of a missed approach or other ATC related requirement and figured out he's got to keep you in his class D? If he wants to put you in the hold you'll be back in class A
If all you want to do is shoot the ILS and you're on an SVFR clearance just ask to fly the ILS and they'll vector you in (or let you do a procedural one if you want).

I have been looking into the IMC rating as part of the idea to introduce an EASA rating that permits some IFR flying without having an IR.

The IMC Rating in so far as it permits IMC flight under IFR is only valid in UK airspace.

When the law refers to UK airspace it refers to the UK Teritorial Airspace which is that airspace above the teritorial limits of the UK. This is not to be confused with FIRs which are separate boundaries set up for the purposes of coordination of traffic.

Since the Government of the CI permit the use of the IMC rating in their teritory then the fact that it lies within the French FIR makes no difference day or night. The French can not legislate away the privileges of the CI Government to regulate within it's own soverign territory.

Therefore one can exercise the IMC privileges of the IMC rating departing the UK until 12nm from the coast and when in the CI once within their teritorial airspace - 12nm for Jersey and 3nm from States of Gurnsey (median line with French teritorial airspace if applicable.

It is the bit in the middle that is the problem for both the IMC holder wishing to fly in IMC and the NPPL SSEA holder wishing to take advantage of the new ability to fly in the CI airspace. In International Airspace (outside the territory of all countries), ICAO provisions apply.

If the FIR boundary was the limit then there would be IMC rating holders who could not fly in parts of the UK while at the same time IMC holders could fly in airspace that is outside the UK!!!!!! The law refers to teritorial limits because the UK can not legislate for what is permitted in another country's teritorial airspace.

Brendan.

Cows getting Bigger

It is very often the case with island climate that you do get cloud over the island but clear blue skies away from the island.
So what maybe a lovely VFR VMC flight can turn to low cloud on the approach.

Pace

To log an ILS approach
 

I have flown into Jersey a number of times, and a large perecentage is done on SVFR. Even on good days the viz can be quite low and poor. I have never been asked the status of my rating by ATC - I hold IMCR, and have been vectored by ATC to the approach profile. I generally, as practice, set up an ILS approach and fly it. Question - do you log this as instrument???? I have actually not given it much thought. Who would check it?? Also is there an assumption by ATC at Jersey, with SVFR is standard, that all pilots are in someway rated?

It is not ATC job to query pilot or aircraft paperwork. They have to assume you are legit.

In some cases they can "obviously" see the one or the other isn't legit, and they might give you subtle hints to not proceed ;)

I know of a case where an IMCR pilot tried to depart IFR from a French airport. He filed an IFR flight plan but (as one would expect, without knowledge of such) this didn't validate via Eurocontrol.

The ATCO just said "the flight plan is not a valid IFR flight plan" and absolutely refused to be drawn on any details. It was his way of saying "look I know you haven't got a real IR" :)

Anyway, from the above, it sounds like an ILS logged to Jersey by a UK IMCR pilot would be legit - in the sense that nobody would be able to query it afterwards, especially after the voice and radar tapes have gone. You could not say the same for an ILS into Heathrow which is 100% Class A and such a logbook entry would be obviously illegal even if seen 10 years later. I would never even dream of logging something that would be self evidently illegal when examined at some later date, by someone who can see what paperwork I had and when I had it.

I was told during my IMCr training that an approach can be logged as instrument, if it is carried out by "sole reference to the instruments" - so I would always log an ILS as an instrument approach - even if it was in VMC.

Re SVFR - no need to be necessarily rated - and no assumption either I would guess? Why would there be?

Thanks IO540
 

Yep, that was my 'understanding' of the process. The reason I asked was the comment from derekf on the Jersey SVFR being reduced to 3k if the holder had an IMCR. On the majority of my excursions to this island the channel part can be right down to 3k, and I view this part of the flight as quite often, ''instrument flying'. I have never actually logged it as such, perhaps a mention in the log of the conditions of that flight.

Its well worth getting hold of both a Jersey and Guernsey ANO. There are some notable differences to both UK and ICAO rules. And none of them have been filed as differences as far as I can find.

The one I like the best is rule 5 in gurnsey is actually a 1000ft rule but the person who wrote it forgot to incuded the usual allowance "unless for the purpose of takeoff or landing"

I'd very much like to see a reference for that. Anyway, who can tell what the pilot was doing in the cockpit? He might have flown the approach autopilot-coupled, while reading Stick and Rudder :)

This debate, in both UK CAA and US FAA terms, has been played out in every pilot forum (UK and USA) going, and must be a close second in terms of forum server CPU loading to old favourites like foreign VMC on top on the IMCR :)

There simply is no legislation on this, and legally that's the end of it.

Morally, it's up to you. I think most pilots will log an IAP only if a part of it was in actual IMC, or there was IMC around so one would expect to encounter some on the way in.

A more strict approach (no pun intended) is to log it only if you are in IMC at the FAF.

A more strict approach still is to log it only if you fly it on instruments down to the minima. This would imply that some 99% of the time you would need foggles and a safety pilot OR you fly it solo but the weather is so bad that you go missed and you actually land elsewhere (which is dangerous because deliberately flying to places where you know you will go missed will eventually bite you on the alternate as well, because stuff like OVC001 tends to be widespread). So IMHO this interpretation is silly.

The FAA has issued various rulings over the years but they have changed them so many times.

Personally, I would not log an IAP if it was obvious from the METARs that the conditions were clearly VMC - unless flying with a safety pilot and then I get consent to use his name in the logbook as per the rules :)

True, but he's still used the ILS, so therefore has done an instrument approach? What else could it be logged as?

We are at a risk of arguing semantics at this point. Their is a difference to flying an IAP for the purposes of maintaining currency under something like the FAA rules and just flying an IAP for the hell of it. If you are flying an IAP for FAA currency then it is flown in accordance with the regs. If you are flying one for fun, who cares what gets written in the logbook?

I have flown 10 instrument approaches in the last 5 days and they haven't use any of ILS,NDB,GPS,VOR,DME or any other approach aid.

How did I do it you may ask.

I looked out the window could see the field, asked for a visual approach and hoofed it in.

Its your flight rules which determines if an approach is an IAP or not. And there is nothing the regs preventing you using an ILS if its there even when VFR. But if you do use it when you are VFR don't bitch and complain if ATC take it out of service and don't tell you or it does weird things.

And I have never logged any approaches, what ever there flavour. Or is this a purely FAA thing?