Engine rebuild - UK recommendations?
 

I'm looking to get a Lycoming overhauled and zero timed, and just wondered if anyone had any particular recommendations for a UK engine shop?

I've had some great recommendations for US engine shops which I am following up at the moment, and depending on certain factors may go that way.

Time is not an issue which is why I am looking at the US too, though realise that it will need an export C of A to go into a G reg.

Is it normal to get the prop balanced at the same time or is this done later on somewhere else?

Thanks....

Only Lycoming can zero time your engine, other overhaul shops can only do it to SERVICE LIMITS or NEW LIMITS. Your prop balancing is another job. I got mine done at MCA Aviation at Shoreham for £550ish (if I remember rightly), they did a nice job with it.

No problems with Nicholson-McLaren aviation for our last few engines.

Nicholson-Mclaren Aviation

PM me if you want a list of who not to go to - with valid reasons....

I would go to Barrett Precision, based on their excellent work for me.

Make sure you get an 8130-4 (export cofa) with the engine, unless going into an N-reg.

I don't think Lyco are the only firm which can zero time an engine in any meaningful sense. Unless a buyer has no brains, he will realise that an engine rebuilt by a highly reputable to NEW limits will be every bit as good and probably better than one built by Lyco to the same limits. The effect on the resale MV cannot be significant, and a rebuild by a reputable shop will only enhance it.

BP can also do proper dynamic balancing, which Lyco don't do.

Propeller dynamic balancing is a separate function and should also be done, after the engine has been done. Very few UK firms can do this. Worldwide Aviation in Bournemouth is one I know well. Arrow in Exeter used to do it years ago and may still do.

Try Richard Isenberg at Southend 01702 547 490 . I have only heard good things about him and I am very pleased with the work he did for me. Very knowledgeable, very helpful. a real craftsman. I would 100% trust one of his engines. I doubt he would bodge anything even if you asked him to.

Give him a call and discuss what you need doing. His advice will be invaluable even if you go elsewhere, however, I bet you'll take it to him after speaking with him.

DJ

Thanks for the responses.

I'm waiting to hear back from a few of them, including Barrett. Dynamic balancing is one of the things I'd like done even though some engineers suck their teeth and say "you don't need that, it is to the original spec"....;)

Regarding "zero timing" the engine, if it has had a major overhaul does this not "zero time" the engine to all intents and purposes (regulatory / performance)?

When a manufacturer zero times an engine he issues a new logbook and a new manufacturer warranty. You will get parts included in your 'new' engine that are potentially (probably) used, and you do not know the background to these parts. However, the parts are within new limits and the manufacturer will stand by their quality. The answer to your question is yes, to all intents and purposes the engine is zero timed, i.e it rolls back the engine time to 0 hours, but as I say you don't get issued the things I mention above.

Richard Isenburg gets my vote as well. Sound advice always available and when we did have a problem with the engine (not related to the overhaul) we took the engine out and dropped it off at Southend for a speedy repair. Try that with an overseas overhaul agency.
The engine is still going strong after 15 years and 1400 hours.

We looked at a variety of UK rebuilders in the summer and preferred Norvic (Now under new ownership and offering some very smart turn-round times) but eventually chose a Lycoming overhaul because of the hollow crankshaft issue. Lycoming will accept a corroded crankshaft with no penalty wheras independent rebuilders have to buy a new one (from Lycoming!).

If it is a hollow crank variety, I suggest you pull the plug and have a look before you go too far.

I understand the zero time thing is different here and in the US. Here an overhaul gets 'zero time' and a new log book wheras there only a rebuild qualifies for that. Lycoming just announced an extension to their 'summer special' where you can get a rebuilt engine for the price of an overhaul if your core is 'first run'.

Delivery (from US via Piper CSP) was very quick at 4-5 days.

Which engines have a hollow crank? Is this the 540 problem that has been widley reported?

This is a TO360 engine, first run.

Did you get the Lycoming one in the UK or via the USA?

Cheers

O-320-D3G as fitted in the Warrior and other engines as described in the infamous Lycoming SB505. Not all O-360's are affected and a friend just had his O-360 rebuilt by Norvic and apparently it has a solid crankshaft. Rebuild took less than 3 weeks.

Edited to say that I went to Piper CSP at Shoreham after looking at the complications of shipping and especially returning the core to the US and deciding there wasn't much in it. Added to which you have a UK warranty that my engineer speaks well of.

Another vote for Nicholson-McLaren. Great service when rebuilding our engine.

Great, thanks for the info.:ok:

US Engine Shops
 

To get an overhauled engine from the States it will need to have come from a shop with "Dual-Release" capability, that is the approval to sign an EASA Form 1, in addition to their FAR 145 Maintenance Approval. Alternatively, it would depend on your maintenance provider in this country, if the Part M Sub-part F approved and not a Part 145, and they have the right words in their management documents and your are not an AOC holder or a training establishment they can use an 8130. I realise it is a bit confusing.

PM me if you want some more info!

Doing Whats Needed

Thanks, yep all these numbers do get a bit confusing!

Someone has kindly pointed me to a shop in the USA which can get the 8130-4 export c of a. Not sure which route I'm going to go down yet, there are pro's and con's to each - as mentioned if there is a problem and the engine was rebuilt in the UK it is relatively easy to sort out. However I have heard good things about one shop in the USA who come highly recommended.

I suppose cost will be a factor too, I don't know what sort of cost we're looking at but I have been quoted Euro 24000 from one euro-shop which if the exchange rate were better might be a good deal. A lycoming "zero time" replacment under their present deal works out at £28,000++ (using their price list) so it'll be interesting to see what other places are charging.

I haven't let on to the wife yet how much all this might cost...:ouch:

I believe Nicholson Mclaren started out as very successful race car engine builders, so I'd definitely be having a look at them if I were in need of an engine o/haul.

NMA still do loads of race car engines at the same premises - very interesting stuff to look at there, lots of Cosworth DFVs and other engines.

Strangely, they keep the two well apart as the aircraft motors demand higher cleanliness, quality assurance etc than the race engines.

Any US engine shop can generate an Export CofA form (8130-4). They get a DAR to sign it - costs about $300.

You don't need to go to an EASA approved engine shop. Such shops can generate a dual-release 8130-3 which also carries the EASA approval # and is effectively equivalent to an EASA-1 form. But as I say you don't need this, and it does limit the choice severely, to firms like Lyco, Pen Yan, and a few others.

Yes, a very British GA shop attitude. Can't argue; it saw us well through WW1 and WW2. The out of balance tolerances which the best US shops work to are about 1/50 of what Lyco work to.

You don't know what you are missing out on until you have flown a 'before' and 'after' aircraft. The difference can be quit remarkable.

Try General Aero Services at Thurrock.

Dynamic prop balancing can make a huge difference.

Dynamic engine balancing may or may not, depending on how lucky you were to start with, and how much you care or notice. I saw a very noticeable difference.

The pistons should nowadays be bought as a matched set anyway, but the rest of the engine parts come with sometimes wide variations. Any shop can e.g. match an underweight piston to an overweight conrod small end, but there isn't anything much you can do about the crank/big-end matching unless you are an approved facility for balancing the crank, and AFAIK there are none outside the USA. One can do a little bit there but it is rather hit and miss because the crank can be light or heavy in different places - not necessary where the conrod is attached.

I was once offered a dynamically balanced crank, done in the USA, passing through the hands of a UK JAR-145 company, who for a nice charge of £800 or so generated a JAR-1 form for it (the usual scam. facilitated by the European certification system). But if you get the whole engine done properly, with an Export CofA, that is better. And that UK company went bust a while ago, IIRC.

The engine can in most cases be made to run smoother still by getting GAMI injectors - standard Lyco injectors matched in their flow rates to compensate for the uneven airflow in the basic engine design. They enable smooth running at peak EGT and into the LOP region if desired.

Dynamic engine balancing (standard in the good US shops), followed by dynamic prop balancing (c. £250), followed by GAMI injectors ($1000 last time I looked) results in a very noticeably smooth operation, which apart from the obvious benefits probably shows itself up long-term in an improved avionics life and generally fewer things dropping off the aircraft :)

There is talk that Lyco's QA has dramatically improved after their 2001/2002 crank fiasco (they reportedly nearly got shut down by the FAA) but as Clint Eastwood might say: do you feel lucky? Aviation certification is a largely artificial process; like ISO9000 being mostly to do with document handling and little to do with the quality / reliability of the end product. The US engine shop I used in Jan 2008 told me they still get brand new Lyco cranks coming in which are 50 gram-inches off balance, when their own tolerance is 1 gram-inch.