And there is an interesting angle... Gliders on a collision course are only marginally easier to spot in VMC than in IMC, but tremendously more common in VMC... Seems then the easiest risk minimizing strategy is to seek out IMC when at all possible...?

Technically incorrect. EASA permit input of non-certified GPS to 1090-ES capable Transponders including those limited to sub 175kts/15000ft. If connected and information is transmitted in the extended squitter, they may not include the integrity information which allows the information to be used for traffic separation.

If you want more chapter and verse, I recommend contacting TRIG.

Rod1

That may or may not be the case but PPL IRs are not the only ones flying in IMC out of CAS.
There are IMCR holders CPL IR holders ATPL holders and everything from light singles to 737s flying IMC out of CAS.

Flying IMC in cloud is a hostile invironment which requires a minimum aircraft capability and pilots trained to a required level.

Flying IFR we have to trust each other to fly to a certain standard and accuracy.

Flying in IMC is not a playground.

I believe that if the aircraft is not suitably equipt and the pilot not suitably trained then they have no right to be there and risk others no matter how small that risk is regarded.

Some could even argue (not me) that as gliders cannot fly quadrantal rules and at a constant altitude level that they should not be there regardless! but surely the minimum should be a strobe and transponder C.

I dont know a lot about FLARM but was under the impression that it was near useless on anything but the slowest aircraft and had very poor range?

Pace

ChrisN is far more elliquent than I and puts the case for gliders extremely well; but as usual those who only see things from their veiwpoint simply set his points to one side and insist on trying to spend their way out of danger at the expense of us "lesser" types.

ST,

Most of the time I find your aurguments balanced and sensible. However, I find the below quote to be pretty presumptuous and seeks to lump all who disagree with you into the category you describe (even if you do highlight the "probably").
Personally, I do all I can to be "visible" and keep good spatial awareness of those around me, but I do this within the limits of my budget or a/c type. I'm also very well aware of the problem.

You also seem to seek to elevate professional pilots to a status of immunity over the most common causes of "death by flying" that we humble amatuers succumb too ... ???? I think statistics would prove you wrong!

Hitting a glider in IMC is a tiny tiny risk in comparison to the others mentioned. Yes it IS a risk ... but just taking off in most aircraft probably presents a higher one! Why should the right to use natures energy be denied to glider pilots just to wrap those who seek to control all risk in cotton wool? If a good, light and cheap system was available then fine ... as yet there isn't one! When there is I'll be the first in line to buy one.

By the way, I often see aircraft whizzing along at a couple of thousand feet and blasting through cloud outside CAS. How safe is that?

SS

Shortstripper, I think that ShyTorque (like me) sees blips on his TCAS all day long - many of which may not have been called by ATC.

Flying regularly with and without it in different aircraft I can assure you that when I am not fortunate enough to have it I miss at least half of the traffic. In busy airspace the system is often displaying the (maximum) 10 most proximate (transponding) aircraft within a 12 mile radius. When the blips start to take over the screen I just zoom in to the 2 mile radius view and focus on avoiding the closest.

Not having mode C selected or flying with the transponder off is just a waste of time. Locating yourself in 2 dimensions (rather than 3) causes more hassle for the rest of us. You could be causing proximity alerts for all sorts of other traffic.

So if you have it, please leave mode C on at all times, even in the circuit.

The mark 1 eyeball is absolutely no substitute for TCAS + eyeball.

Personally I don't think that safety should ever be compromised by intransigence to change or civil liberty type arguments.
The sky is busy and getting busier, any safety improvement should be embraced IMHO.

SB

Pace, I'm sorry you got frightened by a glider in IMC outside controlled air space. However, that is an extremely rare occurrence.

ESPECIALLY COMPARED WITH the number of times we glider pilots get frightened by power pilots with their noses in the cockpits, not looking out at all at all. And the number of times our gliding sites are infringed by light aircraft and helicopters. In fact we had to file an airprox this weekend, as a BIG BLACK HELICOPTER on his way to Wellesborne passed at 500 feet above airfield level directly over our winch operation, which typically dangles a braided steel cable from the glider at l400' down to the ground. Not to mention the other 3 gliders soaring over the airfield above the helicopter who also observed the idiot. Wellesborne tower told him to phone us, he did, and apologised that he had been looking at his GPS map at the time, too bad he couldn't read it!

Over time, it may cheer you to know that most gliders collide with each other and not with you GA chaps (crowded thermals, you know). The only midair between a glider and a GA aircraft I am aware of in 25 years of paying attention to accident reports was in VMC. The K13 glider landed safely, despite losing a foot and a half of wing. The power plane, which had hit the glider from behind, unfortunately did not.

All your FLARM, TCAS, gadgets and controllers still do not absolve the pilot of the duty to see and avoid.

Sorry ... I'm a civil liberties freak! ;)

SS

Good luck in cloud - which is the point of the discussion.

That is OK then, we scare you, so you may as well scare us.

If you lot (the few of you that apparently fly in IMC) would answer the question why you should do so without following the same rules as everyone else that operate in IMC you might gain a little more credability.

I think gliders should be banned flying in IMC without a transponder. I think this is an issue we should take up with the CAA representing as it does an unacceptable compromise to every other users safety.

Firstly, again I point out that I posted about the decreasing availablity of LARS services in UK.

Rod1,

No. I would need to get it certified for use in our IFR aircraft which complies with CAA regulations for Public Transport. ChrisN has convinced me that I don't need one because hardly any gliders fly in cloud. Many other aircraft do
and IFR certified aircraft carry the minimum equipment, which includes a transponder with Mode C.

Shortstripper,

I disagree, none of us is immune (but where are those statistics?). Rather than trying "elevate" professional pilots doing my type of operation, I pointed out facts.

I fly IFR helicopters for a living. Therefore:

I cannot have an accident due to aerobatics or low flying because I don't do aerobatics, or fly at low level. A few years ago risks affecting myself were different because I was required to do SEP (and Jet) aeros myself and also to teach them to others. I also used to be required to fly at very low level and again to teach others to do that, also at night (during my earlier years as a military pilot and instructor).

I cannot have an accident because of a runway that is too short because my aircraft doesn't need a runway for takeoff and landing.

I'm unlikely to stall / spin my aircraft because helicopters don't do either.

I'm unlikely to lose control of my aircraft just because I fly in bad weather and enter cloud - it's a requirement of my job to be competent in that respect and the aircraft is fully equipped for IFR /IMC operations.

I do encounter other risks not mentioned in this thread but irrelevant to the discussion. I do my best to quantify and minimise those risks, too.

The spread of opinions here goes to show that pilots are stubborn, self opinionated buggers (myself included) and some issues can probably only be resolved by CAA action.

Mary

See and avoid was a flash in the gloom.
But hey I could have been the first twin to take out a glider IMC but as none of you fly IMC whats the fuss about loosing that privalage UNLESS you have strobes and mode C ?

Interesting question? is a powered glider illegal with the engine on but legal with the engine off with a non IMCR pilot at the controls when IMC? I can see the insurance claim engine off we pay up engine on we dont :)

Pace

Couple of thoughts (ex-UK glider pilot and power pilot):

On Transponders - Are we presupposing that all the outside CAS IFR occurs in areas that are subject to radar surveilance, thus making the transponder useful?

That may be a daft question, but in my locale, there's vast tracts of class G that aren't covered by radar. Given that only a small percentage of GA IFR aircraft have any form of TCAS, transponders would seem to add very little in that situation in most cases. (appologies if that's irrelevant to the situation being discussed).

What we do out here however, is have area frequencies, on which everyone (gliders included) should be listening, and generally make broadcasts of our intentions - such as tracking from x to y at z thousand feet, eta y such and such a time. Not perfect, but does aid situational awareness.

On gliders in IMC - Don't forget that technically the glider is in IMC (or at least not in VMC), when it is close to the clouds - if you limit gliders to VMC without a slew of kit, and whatever is required to power it, you also limit them (technically) to remaining 1000ft and 1500m clear of cloud etc. Now I'm not sure that many glider pilots cloud fly that often (I for one would not care to for many reasons, including not wanting to finish up wearing a light twin or similar), however having to maintain VMC cloud separations (particularly 1000ft under) would present a major headache. Especially with typical UK cloudbases; perhaps a reason to defend IMC rights so vigorously.

Ok I will have one last go as I am not getting my point across.

Most Gliders fly at the weekend when there is limited radar services OCAS.

There is a very small risk of collision with powered aircraft.

If we force all gliders in cloud to fit a Transponder or stay out then the small number of TCAS equipped aircraft can see the gliders, but the club IMCR pilot with no TCAS will still hit them.

If the Gliders take a PCAS box with them they will get to “see” all transponder equipped aircraft within 5 miles. This box is powered by two AA batteries, lasts 6 hours and is the size of a mobile phone. The glider pilot can then avoid the power pilot on the 1 occasion in 40 years when the two would hit.

This has the advantage that everyone can keep flying as now, no huge campaign has to be launched at the CAA, and we would all be safer!

Rod1
(ex glider pilot / current power pilot with mode c and traffic)

Mark

At least someone who is flying IMC and IFR OCAS has the choice and option to icrease their safety by having some form of TICAS.

Lack of LARS is part of the title of the thread which is the decrease in opening times of military RAS and a lack of interest in giving RAS by many Civil units.

This is putting safe seperation in the hands of the pilots.

You mentioned communication which is also very important as is flying correct quadrantal levels to give further seperation.

Ticas can give a false sense of security unless all aircraft flying IMC are transponder equipt that is why it is important that flying in IMC should have a legal requirement for a fully functional transponder.

As for gliders not complying with VFR limits? That is something most of us power pilots accept. Those Gliders tend to stay around glider sites and are usually seen on a good day around the base of clouds especially around the mating season..

We have the ability to stay on top where you rarely meet gliders. By having a ban on in cloud flying by gliders without a transponder C would also mean that aircraft could pass glider sites in IMC and with a decent vertical seperation knowing NO gliders would be there without the potential to be seen on TICAS.

As to gliders not having the ability to fly quadrantal levels? maybe thats something we will have to live with but a lack of transponder is NOT something we should have to live with.


Pace

The emphasis of the thread (and several others before) is on gliders, and the cry is 'make them spend their money so I feel safer'.

Gliders fly in cloud normally only in fairly isolated towering cumulus, with substantial areas of VMC at the same altitude; why fly through these clouds when a minor change in track will remain clear if you feel unsafe? As has been pointed out before, monitoring 130.4 will also indicate the presence (or otherwise) of cloud flying gliders.

A much greater risk is military fast jets (unequipped with compatible transponders) who penetrate cloud in the open IFR under a much wider range of met. conditions and are often not in contact with the unit you may be using for information. They decline to fit such equipment due to 'budgetary considerations' and their budget is much bigger than mine. And an encounter with them is much more likely to spoil your day.

To fly IMC in the open FIR is a choice; to demand that all others comply with a set of rules that they choose (not the CAA) at considerable cost to others to reduce a minute statistical risk is in my view unreasonable. Of course, if you want to start a fund to pay for the equipping of other sircraft to make you feel comfortable, feel free.

Fitter2

So in your opinion I can go out buy a sophisticated and far better IFR equipt microlight or home built and cloud fly without an IMCR?

I am sure the CAA would agree with you. One rule for some another rule for others. Tell your views to the 737 captain flying IFR / IMC OCAS with 100 odd pax on board.

and no they dont just fly in isolated lumps of cu

Pace

To those in the gliding community, I see a parallel with the shooting community.

In the 70s and early 80s, I engaged in target pistol shooting, which was a reputable hobby, with members probably similar to glider pilots in their enthusiasm, commitment and generally decent nature.

I stopped shooting when I move to London, as I didn't feel happy keeping a potentially lethal weapon in a flat, in an area of high burglary.

Some years year, the Dunblane incident lead to legislation making owning a pistol illegal.

With hindsight, we could have done more in our sport to protect society and we chose not to.

It could happen to your sport.

If I were a glider pilot, I would be looking for ways to voluntarily make your hobby safer.

Cloud flying without a rating and the right kit may be a privilege you like to defned, but come the tragic day when it causes a very serious incident, you may rue your collective views.

Morning Pace

I knew I could count on a knee jerk reply, before you had read what I said.

None of the above - You fly using the privileges of your licence according to the rules.

I never suggested the 737s fly only in isolated cu - I said that gliders do. And if a LoCo CAT encountered a mil. fast jet OCAS, then I suggest the 737 would be as culpable as the fast jet.

There are vast tracts of CAS, defined in the days when navigation was much less accurate, to protect CAT. To make greater profits, (or reduce losses) CAT wants to use the rest of the air as well. In the process, increasing rules to protect fare-paying passengers will reduce risk to you, at no cost to you but at a cost to me.

Please explain the economic logic of your argument?

F2

F2

It appears to be a presumption by some that OCAS is the sole playground of GA.

A free for all piece of airspace populated by light aircraft which we all have a god given right to enjoy.

This is far from the truth. a typical example is LondonDerry I have flow there in twins and jets.

Leaving BEL you are OCAS with military radar. There is no radar at Londonderry so the instrument approaches are procedural.

Flying in there you can be stacked in the hold communicating with ATC, relying on the professionalism of the crew of the other aircraft for where they are and their spacing and they in turn can see you on their TICAS.

I have been in there solid IMC holding with a 737 above and a commuter turboprop below.

To the side of Londonderry is a gliding site. all the airspace toward BEL is OCAS with only the military radar available to give these aircraft traffic info.

This is Londonderry but there are many locations like this around the UK.

Far from being a playground for us GA fraternity to squabble and fight over there are much more serious implications of flying in IMC OCAS than some imagine.

Secondly I believe in one rule for all not pressure group rule and friends in high places turning a blind eye to certain sectors of aviation while expecting more capable sectors in aviation to adhere to stricter regulations at our costs.

It is more a case of you lot being brought into line with what we have to adhere to and already pay for.

Pace

It's not essential to the debate, but which military radar unit is this ?

They should be squawking and talking to someone. That practice is far from safe and expecting them to comply with common sense is not too much to ask - and not in breach of their human rights to go wherever they bloody well like as usual.
eg. 3 miles on the centre line of an ILS to a small regional. Yes you are outside CAS but Christ, how stupid...:mad::ugh: