Chris

I remember when my son flew solo at the age of 16. He still seemed like about 10 to me.

When you have young kids something like this hits home at how awful it must be to the parents of those two girls.

Thankfully my son went through that and is flying as an FO with Easyjet on 737s at 22 but to any parents whos kids want to fly? what can I say ? a nightmare which must be in the back of all of our minds.

Pace

Side question
 

I thought that only the military would carry out the investigation, but I read that the AAIB will participate too (which can only be a good thing, in my opinion). Anybody knows if that is standard procedure for any RAF aircraft involved in an accident, be it a Tutor or a fully armed Typhoon? Thanks.

Deeday

I think that the AAIB are involved in this case because the Tutors are civilian registered and maintained IIRC. So the procedure probably isn't standard.

Is there any suggestion this was a formation flight, or was it more head-on kind of thing?

The BBCi news page was yesterday showing an eyewitness interview in which she described seeing one aircraft go overhead, and then saw the second aircraft - she expected them to pass each other with some vertical separation, but she then saw the collision. That testimony suggest to me that they were on different headings.

RAF Boards of Inquiry often call upon the matchless expertise and experience of the AAIB, whatever the type is. The COMR status of the aircraft is not necessarily a factor.

“matchless expertise and experience of the AAIB”

Given some of the mistakes the AAIB have made recently…

Rod1

13 and 14 years old...
 

BBC NEWS | Wales | RAF air collision victims named

How sad...

As a former Air Cadet myself, I feel very sad at this loss. Accidents where there are fatalities are always sad, but especially so when young people are involved. Rest In Peace :(

Sad to see the usual "Pprune Pprats" out in force on this thread, moaning about which forum the post should be in, various expert opinions etc. Please folks, let's get some perspective, two teenage girls have lost their lives. Perhaps that';s what's important, rather than worrying about whether this thread should be in Rumours & News rather than Private Flying. :rolleyes:

A sad Smithy.:(

Given that, according to the news today, the two girls were related, it may not be suprising if some kind of formation flight (and I don't mean a formal close formation of any sort) was being done.

I've done a few formation flights for photo purposes and while we never got close - not anywhere remotely as close as the aviation magazine front cover pics are done at - it was obvious that serious precautions are necessary prior to acquiring visual contact, and again if contact is lost.

Recently I did a photo formation with a turboprop. It was set up that I got up there first and orbited a certain waypoint (an airway intersection; this was above a solid overcast) at 6700ft, and the other one was doing the same later at 6200ft but a few miles away. Despite having 3 in one plane and about 5 in the other, we found it extremely hard to spot each other even when we knew exactly where to look, and the background was uncluttered. Eventually we sorted it out, with me flying 10nm straight tracks on autopilot and him coming up within about 100m, and I got some great pics, but it's clear one cannot be casual about this sort of thing, where closing speeds are easily 300kt+.

It would have been so easy to try to look for each other at a similar altitude, and end up colliding. "See and avoid" is pretty damn useless when you really need it. It is great for spotting traffic which is nowhere near a collision course and that gives all the traditionalists a warm feeling inside.

Not suggesting this happened here but the two passengers being related would tend to suggest the possibility of some intentional proximity so they get pictures of each other - that would be pretty normal IMHO.

Depends on RAF AEF regulations...I think it would probably not be normal.

I have 5 kids; my eldest is now 17 and I'm terrified at the thought of her getting in a car with any of her new driver friends! She's also learning, but funnily that doesn't frighten me as much? However, I remember when I was that age and all the near misses I had as a typical "super driver" teenage boy ... :\

So what do you do? You can't wrap them in cotton wool forever, and as much as it frightens me I realise there are many risks they have to face alone as part of growing up. Personally, I'd feel much happier with the thought of them flying with a good instructor through the ATC than being a passenger with another teenager in a car. It's terrible when accidents like this happen, but we need to put them into perspective. To almost dismiss kids killed in cars as just normal accidents and those killed in aircraft as being any more tragic would be stupid. Unfortunately, most of the press is sensationalist and well, STUPID!

SS

SS

I don’t have figures to hand, but I understand that air cadet flying has an extremely low accident rate. Not zero, but very low, in comparison to other GA or glider flights.

Does anyone have figures – are they published anywhere, in a way that allows comparison with GA flying?

Chris N.

Sadly it looks as if it was formation flying so that the girls could wave to eachother and may have been the girls at the controls, todays report.
Again a media report but maybe giving a clearer picture

Were teenage cousins at the controls of RAF planes that collided? | Mail Online

Pace

Service Pilots are pretty well trained and qualified in the art of formation flying, I would think that something else contributed to this accident.

The media report linked by Pace adds nothing. These were air experience flights and it would not be unusual for the cadets to be given control. All cadets from the same squadron "know" each other so the fact that they were cousins would not in my view have made formation flight any more likely.

In any event, the aircraft were TXP equipped so I suspect their relative tracks and altitudes will be readily available to the investigators from the Cardiff Radar tapes.

As a CI for a fellow ATC squadron in the Welsh Wing, and having met both instructors involved in earlier air experience flights I've taken cadets to, this accident is very close to home for me.

Mariner9

I am sorry this one is close to you as I also know how awful it is when you loose friends or collegues in aircraft accidents.

This report "seems" to be slightly more informed than the usual media churn outs but I stress the word "seems".

Whatever happened it is a tragic accident to two experienced pilots and with the youngsters also involved a very sad event for all of us.

Pace

"Seems" Pace? How on earth can anyone know what was going on in the aircraft.

And as for the "18 year own golf club greens keeper" saying they were showing off, I despair. I won't use my 5000+ military flying hours to criticise his greens keeping, it would be better he didn't use his mowing expertise to criticise dead pilots.

Given the girls ages, it is highly likely it was their first flight, there is no way that responsible pilots - and that certainly covers both these pilots - would give them control in the known proximety of another aircraft, although it would be perfectly normal to have a gentle "clutch" when S & L. We're not even talking E of C 1 here, but air experience.

And Andrew Brooks? Who he?

Formation flying must be a 'possibility' - as an air cadet we did this in Chipmunks years ago, partly for the cadets' benefit and once for the local newspaper - one of the CIs was a photographer for the local rag.

Can't believe, after the comments of SITW that another death has occurred - this time a helicopter student pilot.

S**T!

AJ

Quite amusing reading from yet another aviation-related Daily Tory article riddled as always with inaccuracies, blatant lies, rediculous assumptions/theories and (probably made-up) testimonies from nobodies.

You make good points, teeteringhead. I agree with all of what you say.

Thank you Captain S

shortstripper said I agree with this sentiment, but to some extent all of us who post here on pprune are guilty of the same.

Because we are flyers, we attach our interest to the story. People are killed every day in all sorts of circumstances and for most of us it is just another news story.

This is a sad and tragic story but lets put it in perspective. these deaths are no worse than any other..............ANY death is a tragedy.

:sad:

Captain Smithy

You do not know that to make the above comments! It could be a pile of rubbish but it could also be totally true. The only fact we know 100% is that two aircraft collided and due to that collision four people have tragically lost their lives. Somebody messed up big time?

Pace

Sorry Pace, wasn't directing that at you personally my friend, was merely expressing exasperation at said tabloid article.

If a Tutor was worth £400K the RAF wouldn't have any; also it would be nothing short of a miracle if any G115 would be able to reach 200mph as stated in the article! When I was on them in the cadets I think we were lucky to get 110 Knots indicated at 24"/2500 and leaned to best power.

Smithy

Smithy

Thats ok as didnt think it was personal :) i think the more experienced you are as a pilot the more likely you are going to give the controls to a non pilot.
Experience breeds confidence. As you have done it so many times before your happy to sit back and give a non pilot the thrill of their lives always knowing you can take control.

These instructors were experienced and could quite easely have let the non pilots try formation flying with small corrections by themselves. But small corrections wont stop a large unexpected input with disasterous results at such close proximity.

I am not saying that is the scenario but it is a likely situation which could have answered why two experienced pilot would collide in formation.

Whatever sadly someone messed up big time.

Pace

Not necessarily. That's what the various inquiries will try and find out.

Unless of course you mean that people other than those on board might also have messed up at some point. Aircraft designers, airspace designers, Regulators, Authorities, etc, etc.

Maybe the pilots simply didn't see each other and everything else from aircraft design and blind spots to uncontrolled airspace, lack of conspicuity technology to flight authorisations, etc, etc, conspired against them.

How much is a Tutor, assuming some possibly fancy (overpriced) RAF modifications?

Grob did specialise in building small batches for special-relationship customers like this.

I had one of their salesmen explain this to me once; why the Grob 140 was priced at Euro 1.5M for example.

Now they've gone bust.

Pace - Are you speaking with any kind of knowledge of this topic whatsoever? Or are you just making it up, like the newspapers and the so-called experts supplying them with information? As someone reasonably close to the incident I find your comments pretty damn offensive to be frank. Accidents do happen, something our modern culture of blame could well do with remembering, and while someone MAY have "messed up" there is no way anyone can say that for sure at this stage.

Arranging a mid-air rendezvous safely is something every military pilot would be capable of doing, but I'm not for a moment saying that is the cause of this accident. Formation flying is NOT a routine part of AEF flying, and I very much doubt if anyone in their right mind would ever give someone on their first trip ever control in close formation.

I can think of several possible causes for this very unfortunate incident, but can we all please refrain from (predominantly) uninformed speculation and wait for the various investigations to run their course.

2010 or 2011?

Knight.

Dont see why you should see my comments as offensive? You say you have several possible explanations? Share them!

Most accidents are Pilot Error and bar some failure which caused the aircraft to hit each other then sadly its likely to be pilot error( a better phrase than messed up so my apologies for that )

I have no knowledge of the accident but purely was referring to the press report which suggested that the two passengers may have been given control.

My observation was that with more experienced pilots that becomes more likely. As someone who would be classified as a reasonably experienced pilot I could identify with that and was reinforcing what may have been a likely cause as suggested in the press.

As 10540 said waiting for a AIBB report? wait at least a year and you may not even have a conclusive answer and by then there is little interest.

I am not of the brigade who are against discussing possible accident scenarios. I feel strongly that they should be discussed as long as they are not put forward as fact.

If you take offence from the above then either you are ultra sensitive or I dont know what to say! You are not unique in being close to an accident. I have lost 4 friends to aviation 1 who was a very good friend.


Pace

Pace, I have to say that you appear to continually harp on about that press article you linked earlier as if you're somehow trying to justify it. You didn't write the article did you?

Of course the cadets may have taken control - that is the whole point of an air experience flight. It doesn't need a newspaper to tell us that. But from the newspaper's point of view - it makes a great story to tell to Joe public who's terrified at the thought of "unqualified" persons at the controls of an aircraft (dunno how they think pilots ever get trained :rolleyes:).

I don't agree. We are all born to die one day. It is sad to loose loved ones but it's not a tragedy if someone has lived to a good age and had a happy and fullfilling life - in that case it is something to rejoice.

In this particular accident they were premature accidental deaths of (presumably, but not verified) fit people in the primes of their lives - that is tragic and worse than many other deaths.

Mariner

No did not write the article just get frustrated at some who try and stifle discussion on accidents in a pilot forum every time we have a fatal accident with the usual excuse of wait for the AAIB reports a couple of years hence.

Especially with pointless groundless comments as above! I have to ask the question what offence? as I cannot see any.

Pace

The fact that The Sun and others are wheeling out heavyweight aviation experts such as Jordan Jones, 18, a greenkeeper for Porthcawl, for their opinion really says it all. His expert opinion, that the pilots were showing off and doing stunts, is clearly worthless and fortunately most people, even Sun readers can see it for what it is. The papers should be embarrassed to publish such pointless, ill-informed drivel, but that has never stopped them before.

Everyone in aviation should know by now that eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and so even the 'facts' of this accident reported in the media (as opposed to downright opinion) are far from certain. One eye-witness account implied that the aircraft were in formation, another that they were definitely not in formation and another that one or both were doing aerobatics.

I would be surpised if these aircraft had been flying in formation (authed or otherwise). No way would control be given to first-time-in-an-aeroplane 13 year olds if in formation. Formation aeros on an AEF sortie - not a chance. Do aircraft in formation collide when being flown by trained military pilots - very rarely.

My gut feeling is that this is just a random collision between two aircraft operating independently; perhaps one transiting the area and the other doing aerobatics. A bad luck example of an inherent risk in aviation. 'Big sky theory' and 'see and avoid' will never be 100% effective and this kind of accident though very rare is virtually unavoidable. Bear in mind that good lookout will have been drilled into these pilots. The RAF know that a zero accident rate cannot be achieved in military flying - fortunately the AEF accident rate is very close to zero. Flying or any other fun activities carry a certain degree of risk, unavoidable accidents do occur and sometimes nobody is blameworthy. The media, public and some ppruners would do well do dwell on that for a moment.

That said, this is an absolutely tragic event and I'm sure that everyone feels in some way connected. This must not be allowed to inhibit the AEF, nor should kids be wrapped in cotton wool.

Formation AEF flights
 

I was an Air Cadet for years (from a 1st class CDT at 13 to 21 when I left as a CWO to become a CI) and I can honestly say that I have never heard of AEF flights making an airborne rendezvous let alone a formation flight so I would be truly shocked if these aircraft were flying in formation.

AEF training flights are conducted in a very simialar way to PPL lessons, they start off very easy and progress, you start with 'push the stick the left, plane rolls left, push right plane rolls right.' The next step isn't formation flying- these are 13/ 14 year olds that we are talking about. :ugh::ugh: The most advanced manoeuvre that I took the controls for was a loop and that was after about 10 hours, anything more than that was conducted by the pilot/ instructor. The risks on these flights really are reduced as far as they can be.

One important thing to remember is that AEF flights depart from the same airfield, go to the same training area and then return to the same airfield. I think it is more likely that the routes would have been almost identical so one could be returning whilst the other is just setting out. I would rate this as more likely than the Tutors going for a formation flight.

My thoughts are with everyone that is left behind by this accident.

I have never heard of AEF formation flights either, and it is my firm belief that this would never be attempted on an AEF. I believe the accident theory behind the "formation flight" is being perpatrated by certain poor-quality newspapers whose only good use is for wrapping chips in.

I cannot recall there being an AEF accident until now, and the Tutor itself has an excellent safety record. I will thus refrain from theorising as to causes until the AAIB has done its job and a report is published; as the saying goes, "It will all come out in the wash".

I suggest, out of respect for the victims, that perhaps others also do the same.

Smithy

I'm normally loathe to put forward theories, but in an effort to dispel the thinly veiled allegations of unauthorised formation flying, I'll expand slightly on JugglingSpence's suggestion, just as one of many possibilities.

Light aircraft operating from Saints generally follow prescribed departure and recovery routes through the Cardiff Zone. Once time is allowed for this there is relatively little left for the 'meat' of the trip, so the aircraft would likely have been operating in relative proximity to each other, but still safely - deconfliction in such circumstances is hardly complicated. They would also retain a service from Cardiff ATC, who historically at least were very good at warnings of "company traffic", even when only giving a FIS. However, once their time was up, both aircraft would have likely been descending to 1000ft or so on the Cardiff QNH, and both aiming for roughly the same point geographically. There is obviously a potential conflict there.

There is absolutely no evidence to support the above theory, there are many many other possible explanations, so can we please leave it to those whose job it is to determine the cause to do so!

Pace - I'd hope you'd know from your wealth of flying knowledge and personal experience of aviation fatalities that saying that recently deceased aircrew "messed up" is offensive. Yes, it may have potentially been down to a human failing (we all know how ineffective the human eye is at spotting conflicting aircraft on a constant bearing for starters), but that is a very different beast to "messing up". Just look at the fallout from the Chinook Mull of Kintyre crash for evidence of how allegations of negligence can further the hurt of already grieving family members.

Inquest verdict

BBC News - Warning system 'may have prevented' Bridgend air crash

WalesOnline

Make allowance for the usual journalistic habits/distortion. I am reliably informed that the Coroner acknowledged that similar accidents may occur even if aircraft have collision warning systems. He made no criticism whatsoever of either the RAF or the pilots concerned and pointed out that there were about 35,000 AEF flights amounting to approx 20,000 flying hours last year alone.

Contrary to the groundless speculation by some here at the time of the accident, the two aircraft were on converging paths - they were not flying close together before the collision.

As a result of the accident, the RAF decided to equip its Grobs with collision warning systems. No bad thing, but arguably OTT after a fluke accident. Very few civvy light aircraft have got it.

Does anyone know which system they are fitting? Xaon XRX?