Off on a slight tangent, I'm surprised that the RAF have not given the Tutor high visibilty markings. As an ex VGS member I remember the tragic air cadet gliding mid air collision 12 years ago or so. After that they added high vis orange stripes to the wings of all the Grob - Viking and Vigilant aircraft.

YSW - I've read that the Grobs have to be predominantly white to prevent overheating of the surface material.

Orange dayglo is not as good as you imagine - darker colours have been found to be much more visible in many cases; quite a few Hawks are black, as are the Tucanos.

Yes thats very true, I knew that it's not advisable to paint GRP airframes. Having seen the orange day glo stripes applied to the VGS gliders/motor gliders they do seem to help although not as good as the black preffered by the CFS aircraft.

Hi Vis Color -- It depends which way you're looking
 

In the Fall, there's countless times looking down I spot the white glider on tow before I spot the orange or yellow towplane.

Looking up it's the other way around.

From Wikipedia:
 

"The only squadron to operate out of St Athan on a regular basis is the University of Wales University Air Squadron, flying Grob Tutors"

Wikipaedia isn't known as a benchmark for superb accuracy. 634?

1 AEF also flies tutors out of St Athan.

Police spokesman on Radio 5 has just confirmed four fatalities.

Rest in Peace

With only the Cirrus fitted with a Ballistic shute system from new and designed into the aircraft from scratch, what are the practicallities of retrofitting such a system to older aircraft especially ones used for formation flying or aerobatics?

I would imagine fitting a reliable and tested system would be complicated ?

Pace

Pace. I think that's a different discussion, though an interesting one.

Love and thoughts to the families of the air men/women who have lost their lives!

"With only the Cirrus fitted with a Ballistic shute system from new and designed into the aircraft from scratch, what are the practicallities of retrofitting such a system to older aircraft especially ones used for formation flying or aerobatics?

I would imagine fitting a reliable and tested system would be complicated ?"

Cirrus Design were told for years by the rest of the GA industry they would never get a BRS certified for the SR20. It was an incredible feat. It is probably well known that the desire to add parachute capability to the whole airframe arose directly from Alan Klapmeier having survived fatal midair collision during his flight training.

Flight Safety Foundation 2005 de Florez Award Citation for Alan Klapmeier

Similar BRS can now be retrofitted to other GA aircraft - I have seen photos of them installed in C172 for example. That type has a rear window the rocket can exit from, YMMV in other types.

--------------------------------
A very sad day.

We seem to be getting a lot of tragic accidents this year. Every couple of weeks there appears to be another thread to discuss of one accident or another.

Aircraft have not developed much over the decades other than in avionics. Deformable structures, crash protection, fire protection and emergency shute systems have other than Cirrus been non existant.

Surely a retrofit would not just mean somewhere to place the shute but also the correct place re C of G and a clean deployement. Remember a magazine building one into a Europa?

Matt you are probably right could start a different thread on aircraft crash survivability?

Pace

Looking at the map, and the comments about the Kenfig Nature reserve.
The area where this crash seems to have happened is actually close to the M4 and the main South Wales railways line, near to where both cross at Margam Lake.
And also less than 2 miles away is the Corus Steel works and BOC Gas plant in Margam.

From the BBC News website;
"The two aircraft were from the flight training school based at RAF Cranwell in Lincolnshire."
and
"Flight lieutenant Alastair Hawes said the planes were on "air experience" flights. Such flights usually feature an RAF instructor alongside someone, usually a young person, who is interested in a military career."

1833: BBC News website says that 4 fatalities were 2 RAF instructors and 2 ATC cadets.

As a cadet myself it is terrible that we have lost 2 people with their whole lives ahead of them, my thoughts go out to their families and friends, and of course to the family and friends of the RAF instructors of course.

I flew with the AEF at St Athan when I was a cadet years ago. I would hate to see this stop cadets in the future experiencing the same thrill and first taste that leads so many to a career in aviation.

Thoughts and condolences to the parents of the cadets.

Smith,
Spot on,thank you.
Lister

BBC News updated:


"Two Air Training Corps cadets and their RAF trainers have been killed in a mid-air crash between two light aircraft near the south Wales coast.
The cadets were teenage girls, thought to be related. They died after a collision near the seaside resort of Porthcawl just before 1100 GMT."



Hopefully they can find out how this happened and prevent it happening again. The AEF has run without major incident for so long, it really would be a shame to see it affected for the future.

What a shame.

I don't know what else to say - words fail me, as I'm sure they do for many people.

As a former Air Cadet I know the excitement of flying with the RAF and the quality of the experience you receive.

If the girls were related I wonder if this was a formation flying exercise that went tragically wrong?

AJ

As a flying instructor I always told my students that there would be about a dozen casualties each year through flying accidents with light aircraft.

Over many years they have looked at me with some incredulity, but year on year the figures mount up.

I can never believe the continuing sorrow these tragedies create, but how can you legislate for accidents such as these?

Unless I am unaware of other accidents, with the accident to the Cherokee at the turn of the year we have already lost seven lives to general aviation in the UK in 2009 - and it's only 11 February.

With a daughter of my own I can't imagine the grief this must cause.

Everyone - please take stock, employ ALL precautions and fly safely.

SITW

Just as a matter of interest, trainee pilots in Canadian Air Force doing Primary flight training in Grobs no longer wear parachutes as, I think, they restricted room in the cockpit too much.

As a rather low time amphibian pilot I have always been very concerned about taking my own children up and I am now faced with one offspring in the CAF as pilot, one waiting for his call up at the moment and another has just applied. My children have made their own decisions about what they want to do in life, but however much fun it would be to go up and have fun together, as a parent it would be my fervent hope that they never fly in the same flight and, in peacetime at least, I believe it should be policy