I went solo in about 52 minutes......

(in a glider at summer CCF camp at HMS Condor many moons ago)

Interesting thing was, I only ever flew right hand circuits over the ski slope.

So, as I tell powered students today: I went solo in less than one hour, but I never knew how to do left hand turns! (of course, it was a tandem glider, so unlike in a side-by-side the view would be the same whatever direction the turn). And we try to be a little more thorough.

Of course the RAF - often hailed as "flying instruction par excellence" here - also had the commercial benefit of Crown Indemnity!

ps. Just for fun I will add my other favourite:

Half my students are "below average".

I'm 32 hours in and still not solo. I'm not really in a hurry and I'm still quite happy flying around with my very attractive instructor next to me. ;)

Mine was at about 16 hours seven days into a residential course and I'd also had a couple of hours on a completely different aircraft at another club. Maybe at 40 I was a slower learner than some but one thing I remember the instructor saying afterwards was that he wouldn't send anyone solo until they'd made enough bad landings to learn from their mistakes.
I don't remember the hours to first solo seeming that important at the time and they were completely irrelevant once I'd got my licence. Fortunately unlike my earlier brief experience of gliding, the group I was training with were non-competitive, we wanted to encourage each other to fly.
It was much the same with the hours to PPL. Once I'd got it the hours it had taken to get it were just part of my flying experience.

Apparently quite a lot of people give up flying once they've done their first solo.

Here is my willy wave...(not)

Obsessive pilot on flight simulators of all kinds from a teenager.... Then radio controlled model planes and helis for 3 years right up to a big 4bhp 7 kilo one... Aero competitions.... Then im 19 years old and ready for the real thing...

12 hours 50 minutes at Shoreham in a C152. Ready to solo, Failed medical, gave up. Then 2 hours in a shadow Microlight... Gave up properly.

Ten years later, 22 hours in a Microlight....NPPL GP countersignature, and I'm solo. Then a frustrating 7 hours before going solo again... At which point i did 3 go-arounds in a row trying to land on a 450m strip (too high, too fast) needed some reassuring words over the radio. Then passed with 50 hours logged.

The more hours I fly the more aware of new dangers I become. If I had gone solo after 12 odd hours, I would have had no readiness for the slightest thing going wrong.

Like Steve6443 I too learned to fly to overcome my fear of flying and I'm sure my reluctance to relax played a part in the time to solo. Took me nearly 34 hours aged 39 to solo and I can tell you I was glad of every single moment of those hours when I landed.
It still makes me grin from ear to ear when I think of it. :)

I currently do an hour a month in a micro because of my low wage. Looking at solo flight very early next year. Please don't worry about how long it takes to get solo, because we all learn at different rates, times, income etc. It will take me longer to get my national pilots license because I learn to fly so infrequently, but I see my self as 'airborne' and not one of the dreamers looking back wishing I had learnt to fly. Just fly at your own pace and at the finances available, and make every minute of it. Go for it my friend and just do it 'your way'....

Good luck!

Taking a look at this thread as an ex-instructor in the 90s at Eastleigh in the UK and was reminded of the student - mitch - who took me to the brink with her flying and I battled every inch of the way to get her to fly solo. She must rate as one of the longest to solo here and, yet, that is not the point.

Mitch was a lovely lady in her 60s whos husband had passed away and she was determined to do something with the rest of her life and that 'something' was to learn to fly. The only problem, as I was later to find out, was that her deceased husband had spent decades of married life essentially 'cowing' mitch such that she had absolutely no confidence in herself whatsoever. She couldnt drive, hell, she couldnt even balance a cheque-book as she was given absolutely no responsibility in life other than to cook and to run the house. He had essentially 'bullied' her into submission and was led to believe that she would amount to nothing. (you have to understand this before the rest of the story makes sense). Now I was running an adult evening class at the local college, teaching PPL groundschool to earn some extra cash when in walks mitch and a friend, another pensioner, both professing to want to fly and both wanting to finish the exams first so as to be well-prepared for the flying.

Eventually Mitch came out to the airfield for her first trip. It quickly became evident that her husband had really smashed her confidence and from what I could see she had NO natural affinity with the machine or her environment. In short she was totally ham-fisted and seemed unable to grasp the simplest of notions in the air. However, she was determined to try - and good on her for for trying! I was, however, rather concerned that an elderly lady might be throwing her pension away on a whim when I felt that success in her new venture was going to be extremely remote, to say the least....I quietly took her to one side and pointed out, after a few hours of flying, that maybe aviation was not really her thing and that I didnt want to see her money pouring down the drain at something like £100 per flying hour! She bristled and told me, in the sweetest possible way, that the money was HER concern and that she DIDNT CARE!! her husband had ruined her life and, by god,she was going to follow her dream!! somewhat taken aback at her determination, I agreed that I would continue with her but that we were in it for the long-haul! It was going to take a long time, longer than anybody else in the club, but I would work with her 'until we got it right'. Throughout the coming months I was to repeat to her, over and over, that this was going to be an expensive and time-consuming business and that she really ought to consider perhaps another hobby......she smiled her smile and got on with the battle. And what a battle it was. At times I went through periods of dreading her walking in the door and I often felt ashamed that she was paying to fly when she really had so little talent at it. Then, all of a sudden, I started to see signs - very small signs - that what I was saying was slowly, so slowly, getting through to her. Suddenly it started to become a challenge. We started to progress through the syllabus, very slowly, but, nevertheless progressing. Mitch began to 'emerge from the fog' and was actually beginning to think in the air! We worked at it, my god did we work, together! She put so much effort in that I began to be rather impressed and, dare I say it, proud of her attempts to conform to my teachings.

Over a period of 16 months we worked and worked at it. Circuit after circuit, interspersed with refresher sessions outside of the circuit to keep her interest and her skills up. Confidence rose and she FOUGHT back! I began to think that she might actually get solo! You see, in that 'chat' that we had, she told me just how much this meant to her to learn to fly and that she knew that she was useless at just about everything but that she wanted to prove something to herself by learning something that her husband never had the nerve to do - to fly - and she fully expected never to be let solo. Trouble was, I began to think that Mitch was capable!

Eventually came the day, 16 months later, where the circuits were acceptable, the landings were reasonable and her confidence was good - and steady. Mitch was READY! 48 hours and 10 minutes and she was there! I told her that there was nothing more that I could do for her and that I was getting out and that she had something to prove to herself....I walked up to the tower and sat there whilst she made that first solo. Interestingly, the tower controller was chatting to me whilst this was going on and conversationally asked "what ever happened to that mad so unding french lady that you used to take up? God, we used to nearly hit the crash button on some of her approaches...!!" It was a lovely moment to finally say "mate, you're looking at her right now!"

The first solo, as did many more, passed uneventfully - apart, that is, from the party afterwards. I was SOOOO proud of her....

12000 hours later I have had a few highs in my aviation career, including flying the A380 but NOTHING has beaten the proud moment when Mitch went solo. NOTHING. So I guess what I am really saying here is that it is NOT how many hours you went solo in, it is the fact that you DID it and what sort of a fight you had, personally, to achieve it that counts.

Cracking post smiffy

Thank you; it was heart-felt.

Great post there Smiffy! Very inspirational and just shows how you can achieve something if you really put your mind to it. Mitch has one up on me, she's done her solo....and what a remarkable women she is!

I will remember this story throughout my learning journey, whenever I feel the 'going getting tough'.

Thank you for your post.

My initial progress was slow. Hampered by airsickness (esp during stalling) & inability to judge flare height on the Chippie.

Change of instructor: the new chap got me to line up but instead of opening the throttle the following exchange took place:

'Look ahead, note where the horizon intersects the cowling.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image. Now, look down a bit, note how high you are above the ground.'
'Okay.'
'Memorise that image.'
'Okay.'
'Right, now fly a standard circuit and don't let the aircraft touch down till the horizon's in the right place and the height is the same as now.'

It worked. I soloed a few circuits later.

Wishestofly....my pleasure and I wish you all the best with your quest to fly. Looking back, I can honestly say that those hours were amongst the most pleasurable of my career and, if I could make a decent living from it then I would be back there in a flash! And that is from a long haul 380 pilot. I loved instruction and, today, when I counted up all of the hours in my logbook that Mitch had done to first solo it was a real trip down memory lane and got me thinking....alas the bigger bucks lie in the desert with international flying. Maybe I could instruct again when I retire....I would really love that.

I am 52 and have 22 hours and am waiting to solo. This thread gives me a little peace of mind. I have been extremely frustrated that I'm not "getting it" quite as quick as most (10-15 hrs). Way too much pressure! I have considered giving up due to my hours. I'm flying twice tomorrow, weather/wind permitting. Who knows? Could be tomorrow. :)

Daverehm: My first piece of advise: don't listen to all of the willy-waving superheroes here - you know the ones I mean, those who are born sky-gods, those who go solo after just 20 minutes airtime? They will just depress you and, as you've already noted, make you put yourself under pressure.

First things first, it's not a race, you are learning to fly for your own satisfaction (I hope) so just understand you are learning at your pace, not someone else's.

Secondly, you won't even be able to take the skills test to get your PPL licence until you've done a minimum 45 hours, of which 10 MUST be solo so it really doesn't matter whether you solo at 10 hours or 35 hours; also, don't be despondent and think that "you aren't getting it" because you (or at least your instructor) will note that once you start going solo, your learning curve steepens quite sharply.

Thirdly, I seem to recall the average was 50 - 70 hours if people aren't doing full time courses because of a cycle of "learn - forget - relearn".

I soloed with 27 hours in the book so if you went solo tomorrow, your progress is better than mine was..... :-)

Daverehm, I'd ask for an instructor change, although without knowing where you are 'not getting it', it's hard to comment.

I most certainly wasn't a sky-god, but I was young and managed to work in aviation full time from the age of 18 so for me it's all just been part of one very big and complex journey.

So, I possibly have the most unusual route to first solo you're likely to come across.

16 hours and 23 flights in a Bulldog with the UAS, not a talented student, chopped from UAS flying training.

Through the university, 3 x 30 minute observer trips in Cranfield's Jetstream learning about flight test.

Then I discovered a microlight club during a summer job, 2 1 hour trips in a Spectrum. Loved it, plus had a vastly more sympathetic instructor than my RAF QFI.

Few more observer trips - helicopters this time, and a couple of hours crouched in the back of a VC10 cockpit.

Then back at university, managed to grab one flight in a Thruster, still enjoying it, not enough money to keep going for now.

Finally graduated, had a little bit of money. Got to solo in a total 9 flights, 8:25, with a really good microlight instructor in the Spectrum again. I think that about half that time was learning, and about half was building up the confidence destroyed by my RAF instructor a few years before.

Then changed job. Moved somewhere else, had a longish break, but went solo again in a Shadow: 9 flights and 8 hours, but in between scrounged some motorglider and glider trips through work opportunities.

Then 10 hours mixed solo and dual later in the Shadow (the famous "George" which I'm sure a few other people have flown), got my restricted microlight PPL.

Then I decided to have a go at flexwings, and did my flexwing conversion and nav to remove the restrictions on my PPL together in about another 15 hours in a Quantum then an F2a. To actually go solo on a flexwing took about 12 hours - although at the same time I also did a stack of back and right hand seat work flying in everything from a BAC1-11 to a Hawker Hunter, and whether that helped or hindered my piloting journey, I honestly don't know. Most likely it slowed me a lot in the short run, and made me a far better pilot in the long run.

G

I did about 30 hours before my solo. Apparently that is about the average for people my age and I am just short of 40. If you are 20, you might solo sooner. If you enjoy flying, hang in there, it will come.

Rolling 20, while asking for an instructor change may be a good idea in some cases, I would hesitate to suggest this without a good deal more information. For a start, we don't know how many instructors the Daverehm has already had, what he or she is learning on, in what sort of environment, how often he flies, what the weather has been like, and all the other variables. 22 hours is not excessive for a middle aged person coming to a light aircraft with no aeronautical background. I would like to know what the specific difficulty is before making any further comment.

It took me 48 hours to go solo - I was in my late 40s. I finally got my PPL(A) at just under 90 hours...rather a lot. Then I went for a helicopter trial lesson, loved it, and decided to get a PPL(H). 30 hours to solo, and under 60 (I think), to PPL....a little under "average". Then I got a CPL(H) and FI(H) and became an instructor, and I like to think I was a good one, partly because I knew about every problem possible and sympathised; I'd been there!

So don't worry about hours. However, I realise now, many years later, that I'd have done better if I'd switched instructor sooner when doing my PPL(A). The chap who first taught me was a rather unsatisfactory instructor, indeed, a rather unsatisfactory human being, sad to say. If you're not "getting it" ask yourself why. It may just be that you need more time, and there's no harm in that; we slow learners get there in the end. But a change of instructor may help; it may not, but going up with someone else to see how you get on can't do any harm.

Piper.classic, like I said in my post it's hard to comment without knowing where he is 'not getting it'. I know of one case twenty years ago, where a chap had 35 hours and hadn't gone solo. Joined another club and soloed the same day. Turned out he had been a victim it was believed of instructor 'hours building'.

Background in aviation, did 22 years on a variety of aircraft as an Avionics engineer. Learned to fly gliders about 25 years ago, got involved in the club scene, got my silver badge. Went across to the dark side three years ago at age 55 as a curent glider pilot and went solo on my seventh flight in 4.35. Did my skills test in minimum time.

Does that make me a better pilot than someone who takes 30 hours to go solo? Not in the slightest. I'd flown for donkeys years before I went onto powered, was used to being in the air, used to navigating, it was just a glider with a fan on it to me.

Started gliding when I was 14 and had my first solo after about 50 flights, I would say roughly 6-8 hours. But this was towards the end of the season. On the first day of the next season I witnessed my father crash in a glider, thank god he survived. It took me a long time, and determination, after that and the support of a lot of good instructors to feel at ease in the cockpit again. I remember the first solo after witnessing the crash better than I do my actual first solo.

But I stuck with flying, eventually got my Gliders license, and starting my 737 typerating next month.

Daverehm,

Are you really enjoying the flight training with your current instructor?

If you're not comfortable with the level of learning that you're experiencing with your current instructor, go for an alternative.

I also had a problem with my flight instructor during my flight training. After 12 hours of dual flying, I was ready to go solo, but my instructor resisted to let me go solo. Well, I decided to dump him and go for another instructor who immediately signed me off after one hour of flight with me. Bingo and off I went.

So, do a reality check and figure out what exactly is hampering your progress. If you can't identify the factors that are hindering you from attaining your goal, then you have a serious issue to address.

considering the fact you are paying the bills, the flight training must be reflecting on your needs and it is crucial you determine that the instructor is working with you to achieve your goal.

Good luck.

WP

Ability, in any case, is quite frankly overrated.

I probably am a fairly reasonable pilot these days, although I most certainly was not when I started learning. The reason I am now pretty good is twofold - one is that I really enjoy aviating, and it's pretty easy to put hours of practice and learning in if you enjoy it. The other reason, is that I put all those hours in.

I'd say the same of several other things in my life - none of the things I've got the greatest satisfaction from, did I ever show any real natural ability at when I started. But, without going into details, there are two other areas of activity where I'm reckoned to be pretty darned good - but both took a quarter of a century of enjoyment-driven effort to get there, as I was pretty bloody mediocre for the first few years.

So basically, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference in the long run whether you take 5 hours or 100 to solo. What makes all the difference is whether you enjoy it enough to spend the next few hundred, and perhaps few thousand hours learning and improving constantly - both in the air and on the ground.

G

G

i would see that slightly different in the fact that there are pilots who are better at it than others we will not all get to the same standard no matter how hard we try because our brains are built differently.
Being built differently there are areas where we will excel and areas where we fall short.
I know with myself my strengths are with the visual side of my brain and I envy those who are so organised.
The main point from a pilots perspective is knowing those limits and flying within them or sadly aviation is a very cruel mistress.
I knew a fairly elderly gentleman who loved being around aviation but knew he would never solo.
He was happy getting his fix twice a month with an instructor so what was wrong with that!
Another took a long time but achieved his PPL and was happy to go round the local area in good VFR but no more. He knew he would never be an instrument pilot battling all weathers on his own! What is wrong with that?
Others of us are a bit crazy :E and somehow survive
There are pilots who I admire who are far better in an all round way than I will ever be but its about knowing your strengths and weakness in aviation.
Yes strive to improve them and be satisfied with who you are and what aviation give to you.
But can you make a good safe car driver into a formula 1 ACE No but does it really matter ?

Pace

When I started I did it with a flying club. I was pretty driven, and wanted to excel at it. I got stuck at 15 hours, not having gone solo, a combination of very poor instructor, poor training club, weather, and my time. I got very frustrated.

Solution, went out and bought a Chipmunk, got an instructor to teach me, a very good one, linked myself to a CFI, and soloed in 8 hours, passed GFT, spot on 40 hours.

If I had stayed in the club scene, I doubt I would have achieved anywhere near where I am now. I have loved every minute of it, I have also scared myself ****less on occasions, but, think I have learnt from those horrors, and I went out and received more training, and then more training. You never stop learning, and as Pace stated realise your limitations, and then fly safe.

But I'll bet you could turn most safe drivers into somebody who can get an F1 car around a track fairly well, given enough time. And if you'd got that elderly gent 20 or 30 years earlier?

I didn't say that ability is irrelevant - it's not. But for the vast majority of people, it's very overrated compared to energy, time and enthusiasm.

G

Genghis, my own experience mirrors yours UAS wise. Thirty years later I can laugh about it with my QFI. It wasn't funny at the time however and some of my contemporaries have never recovered from being chopped and want nothing to do with reunions etc. I soloed in under 7 hours once that experience was behind me and wished I hadn't been so intimidated as a teenager. C'est la guerre...

G

Probably car driver isn't a good example.
skiing maybe ;) Many people enjoy skiing. they trundle down the slopes some happy on gentle green runs, others on reds, others on blacks some off piste.
The majority get a great deal of pleasure skiing within their own limits and are safe. Some go out of those limits and end up as crumpled wrecks in hospital or worse.
They all will not have the aim of being Olympic down hill racing champions.
As an ex fairly successful club car racer back in my 20s involved in Formula Ford, Clubmans and Formula 3 i do not agree you would ever get the average car driver to get anywhere near competitive lap times in a formula 1 car :ok:

Main point is enjoy your flying whatever that is! strive to to better yourself but know your limits and stick to those and fly safe

Pace

No, nor for me. It left me feeling poleaxed at the time. However, I managed to stay friends with the organisation and a lot of the people. That did take some effort. I think that the organisation has changed somewhat since and is much more about broader RAF careers and relationships, rather than just create fighter pilots or get rid of them. I think we had about a 90% chop rate my year - not helped by being able to fly Monday to Friday only, and a very large proportion of us being engineering students.

G

Ghenghis, You are right the organisation has changed. As the CFI said to me last September:'back then you were being taught to RAF flying training standards'. I met a current student, nice chap, been on the squadron two years, TT 30mins!

The difference being that most people being taught to RAF training standards aren't trying to pass a degree at the same time, with lectures on all the same days of the week that are available to go flying! I think that my UAS (Southampton) had the highest choprate in the UAS organisation - as we couldn't fly weekends, and about 2/3 of cadets were engineering undergrads. I think they eventually fixed it by moving from Daedalus to BDN, but that was after I'd graduated.

G

Daverehm

FWIW, I went solo at 22.5 hours aged 48. I too was getting frustrated, not with the instructor but with myself. I found the whole thing to be far more difficult than I anticipated. I guess I saw it as a failure on my part, especially seeing the young guns going off at 12 or 15 hours.

I finally passed my skill test at 75 hours, the whole process taking five months elapsed. On a positive note I did get the night qualification in 5 hours 5 minutes. But the IR(R) is really a struggle for me, I am already at 15 hours, and I'd not be surprised if I need another 10 or 15 to get to test standard.

The other thing I found was that unlike passing a driving test, once you've got your PPL, there's a whole lot more to learn about before being confident enough to do that £200 escargot and garlic trip to France.

I have just had to accept that the old grey matter ain't as malleable as it once was. That's life I'm afraid.

The student's ability is only a small part in the 'time before going solo' number of hours. Just as influential are:


- Quality of instruction
- Frequency of training hours leading up to solo standard (ie last five hours in one week or 6 months?)
- Cautiousness of instructor
- Dare I say it, but yes, instructor's/club's desire to extract money from student


Some people still believe that pilot A is 'better' than pilot B because he soloed at 6 hours, compared to B's 15. That's just silly. Ok, there will always be the complete no-hoper, but from what I've been told, they're pretty rare.

I think that time to solo is not a significant indicator of eventual pilot ability. It has certainly increased since say 1950, not due to any real change in the aircraft but rather the training environment. Just look at the activity levels at for example, Wellesbourne compared with a large grass field with two or three aircraft clear of controlled airspace.

There are a number of exercises that the student must complete before a skills test, and should compete before solo. I don't think it is realistic to expect the student to be solo even in benign conditions unless they can safely and with some spare mental capacity fly all the manouvres needed for a circuit, be able to recognise and recover from a clean stall and the approach to a stall in the approach configuration (recovery at the stall warner with minimum height loss) cope with a simulated engine failure at any stage of the circuit and execute a go around on their own initiative in the case of a balked or bounced landing.

They should also be able to divert to a nearby airport if flying from a single runway airfield, be moderately competent on the radio unless flying in a non radio environment, and feel comfortable with the knowledge that they will be the captain, solely responsible for the safe conduct of the flight.

We have gone from a 35 hour to a 45 hour PPL and added layers of complexity to the task in the last 60 years. We expect a learner driver to pass a test before solo, not to drive around on their own less than half way through their training. What's the rush? We all have financial constraints, but the student pilot needs to learn to fly safely, not to enter a first to solo competition.

My personal opinion is that most pilots are in the circuit too soon. There's a high workload involved in flying a series of circuits that is not compatible with learning basic handling skills. There is no need to bash around learning straight and level in the local area, it can be done on short cross country flights, each one of which starts with a takeoff and finishes with a circuit and landing. This will inevitably involve all the activities required to solo, but in a less stressful situation. Then when the student is competent it is time to do some more concentrated flying before solo. Not two hours general handling then twenty hours going round in circles......

With the added benefit that they will know their semi local area and will be less likely to get lost close to home!

Piper Classique makes some very good points about the training environment and the required knowledge but his best observation is that students move into the circuit too soon.

Monocock has also identified some very important factors, his first and last bullet points being particularly astute.

Having got out of the standard flying club loop and moved to a non profit club I find that we don't have the problem with bad instructors ( because it is not a place to go to get hours for an airline job ) or being driven to push a student into parting with money add to this a circuit that is very tight by today's standards and you have all the pieces of the jigsaw needed for speedy student advancement.

I have said before on this forum I think time to solo has more to do with the number of landings a student performs, not the number of flying hours.

I'm not an experienced instructor compared to many - but it took me probably 30 hours of instructing to work out that it was vital to get people's skills right in the upper air first, then once you bring them back into the circuit it'll all come together very quickly.

So I really dont "get" why so many instructors, often with tens of times my instructing hours, feel it's essential to get inexperienced pilots with still-poor basic flying skills into the circuit so fast. In my opinion, they're at a skill level where this will only stress them and slow their learning process.

I get why so many inexperienced pilots think that they should - it's because they were fed that by their instructors. But why the instructors?

G

But why the instructors? Sadly, in many cases, because they were fed that by their instructors, and they haven't thought about it since. And because they've developed a method of teaching, and just hate to deviate from it.

Learning to fly accurately before trying the circuit is IMHO even more important in the case of helicopters, where you have more to do and usually a smaller circuit. I certainly used to try to make sure students were reasonably good at upper air work before getting them in the circuit. I also tried doing this on short cross countries; it relieved boredom, and reminded them why they were doing it all..."There's a hill, what do you think you should do? Climb? Good answer. Go ahead then..." Yet I remember arguing just this point with an instructor who was far more experienced than I was at the time (and who was supervising me at the time), who more or less seemed to think that students could learn to fly in the circuit!!! I said I couldn't teach that way and we agreed to differ, but he was convinced that they learned faster his way. But did they learn better? Well, I talked to some pilots who'd been taught to fly by this guy, and more than one felt they'd been rushed too much when learning the basics.

So it looks as if we are all singing from the same hymnbook here. Why, then is this learning to fly in the circuit still going on? I instruct for a not for profit Club, I see A and C makes this point, but are the rest of the instructors here also at clubs rather than schools?

Monocock makes good points about frequency of training, too. Less than once a week doesn't usually work well, either. Neither does a too intensive course help, tiredness and confusion start rearing their ugly heads. Our students tend to do their PPL over two years, with most of the flying between April and November, and are mostly taking 55 hours or so, less for the younger ones. We will often test for a Brevet de Base the first year, which gives them some independance for local flying, and helps them stay current. Transfer of responsibility again.....