Diamond charge $13,000 for the Avidyne (nee Ryan) TAS 600, which weighs 7.7kg. Better value than an ADF at $10,700 and 4kg, but still too expensive for general use. However, any aeroplane fitted with TCAS should pick up my transponder, even if I don't see them, so I'm all for them.

I have a little widget that plugs into my Garmin 496 that I am testing at the moment that works very well. Around a grand including the Garmin cable and it shows the target on the 496 moving map display.

The problem in this situation is who would have/should have carried this? The luscombe with limited space and electrical system or the Pac?

I guess that is because "all the evidence" is AAIB reports showing where it hasn't worked. No one logs all the occurences where it has worked. So we just don't know how well it works because we only have the failure statistics not the success ones. Am I making any sense? :hmm:

Really? I hope that this isn't the case as I fly with the landing light on most of the time. If motorcycles do, then why not aircraft?

Perfect sense....

And I agree with Pudnucker. There are lots of nasty narrow corridors which VFR traffic, including especially microlights and permit aircraft are being squeezed into ever closer proximity.

In the dim mists of my youth I read the story by Philip Wills about the battel to preserve the ability to glide from Dunstable as the needs of Luton's traffic became greater.

If I recall correctly, the great and the good from NATS (or whoever) and the CAA plugged on and on about protecting the safe passage of the travelling public.

It was only when Philip Wills said - then who will take responsibilty for the pilots in the uncontrolled airspace that a compromise was reached.

We are getting back to this situation. The commercial airlines want to expand their activities and have persuaded the Govt it is a good idea. Whole areas of airspace are being extended - Coventry has a larger area than Gatwick for many fewer movements. So permit a/c microlights and those unable to equip with the latest gizmos are kept out of new airspace. Mode S will add another twist to this.

As a result there will be many owners and operators being put at greater risk by airspace designers, who are throwing the responsibility back on the pilots.

I hope that this incident (and the one at Brookman's Park) some years ago will act as a wake-up call to NATS and the CAA to ensure that designs allow reasonably-sized corridors - not like the Stansted Gap, Brize/Lyneham/Fairford gap which are hazardous to health

...........................

So where is the 3rd aircraft?

Consider two aircraft approaching each other at 120kts each, when the visibility is 6km. The time from the earliest possible sighting to the moment of impact is 50 seconds. We're all taught that the ones that are going to hit you are the hardest to spot, so the distance is likely to be a lot less before the "Mk. 1 eyeball" can identify the danger in the clag. Suppose it took 20 seconds to do a scan, followed by a 10 second VOR position check, and the approaching aircraft was visible at the end, rather than the beginning of the next scan. Did your instinctive reaction, finely honed by regular practice save you, or had the other pilot finished reprogramming his flight plan in time to have already taken avoiding action?

The big sky theory has got to explain why mid-airs are so rare, but stacking the odds with TCAS still appeals.

Soay

Correct - and you might also want to add in the reaction time between seeing the aircraft and doing somehting about it.

It is not hearsay - the FAA have conducted at least two studies to my knowledge.

I can confirm the PCAS units work very well (this maybe what Bose was referring to linking it to a 496) albeit as with any detection system they rely on the other aircraft having a transponder with mode S capability or better.

It's a while since I used to read light aircraft incident reports regularly, but this old head instantly thought of at least two other mid-airs in VMC within 100 miles in just the South East corner of the country ... a classic climbing and descending at Redhill (one a Cherokee I think), and two Robins over Kent (one on a training sortie out of Rochester / one routing cross channel from Ockham way). There have surely been others in other parts of the country over the past decade or two, and I am not sure we can still call it a "rare" or "unusual" occurrence, or express surprise when it happens.

We all know that 'looking out' and 'scanning' is mandatory but let's face it, at typical 200 to 250 kt closing speeds in 2007, and with typical 'eyes in' workloads of single pilot navigation and instrument training, and varying standards of Class II sight, what we are really gambling our lives on when eyes are in, is simple laws of probability based on unknown traffic densities unless at least RIS has been obtained.

Maybe it is indeed time to ensure that RIS is mandatory in some cramped corners i.e. upgrade the airspace, rather than to be allowed to continue to fool ourselves that like old times we can live without it ...

I think pilots deep down do know the risk we take is there and could be offset with investment, but our thoughts now are of course with the families of the two people who died.

Hello.

Does anyone know who the aircraft that crashed belonged to? Flying school?

I find it a little strange that KAY (landed aircraft) was on a pleasure flight around that area. From what I'm aware its rare for it to move out of the Cark area, unless going for maintenance. Thankfully the individuals in KAY are ok, could of been a lot worse as it is licensed to carry up to 18 people believe it or not.

Sam

At a guess I would say its probably in a hanger somewhere while the owner is being interviewed by the AAIB. I took an interest in this because I thought it may have been someone i knew. However this doesn't appear to be the case so my thoughts are with the friends and family of those who were involved.

Re TCAS: I saw a system built into the Garmin 1000 which is fantastic but it will only work when everybody is Mode S equipped. Its very similar to a TCAS but doesn't give "Resolutions" only "Cautions" and a display of local traffic.

Robin
Coventry have no controlled airspace-just a proposal that is very unlikely to come to fruition, certainly in its present form
also micro lights/permit A/C are not banned from controlled airspace, well not class D anyway-while it may be difficult to gain access/transit of some at some time most is available-try asking! I have refused access no more than 2/3 times in the last 10 years-normally done because the radio is unreadable
Helicraig-thanks for the pat on the back-was fraught for a moment or two but believe it or not most controllers will do what they can for the 'little guy' !

Almost Professional

Apologies for my error. It is true that Class D does not necessarily mean that light GA is barred, but AOPA are certainly interested enough to ask to hear of any refusals.

At my local 'international' airport, still awaiting confirmation that their Class D application will go ahead, they are "instructing" GA to go down specific routes
so as not to inconvenience the local ChavAir services.

When Mode S Phase 2/3 comes into effect a stroke of the pen would make areas of Class D a designated mandatory transponder zone. There are mutterings that the area below the 2500' limit around London may also be one such area.

If so, how do the light GA get around the area, except by being pushed into ever smaller areas of airspace and honeypots, thereby increasing the risk.

My point (badly expressed) is that it feels as though the technical solutions seem to be the only game in town, but that a radical look at airspace design would bring more benefit at lesser cost.

Not necessarily. Earlier this year I flew to Colerne. Whilst I was there I was asked where I had flown in from and upon telling the gentleman concerned that it was EGBO, I was asked if I had seen the latest Met forecast which had just arrived. I said "no" and was then informed that there were snow showers around Shawbury. I finished my coffee quickly and set off back to EGBO. The same cloud which had caused me problems on the way down was still lurking around the hills south of Gloucester so a quick, preplanned (just in case) diversion to the M5 then follow it along to EGBJ before turning overhead and heading home brought me into good visibility with little cloud. The weather at EGBO was still good, if a little cooler than when I set off but there was definitely NO snow nor had any been seen whilst I was away. EGOS is approximately the same distance from EGBO as it is from Blithfield.

Interesting thoughts. I'm just saving up for the Zaon PCAS system and will upgrade my Garmin 296 for a 496 so I can see traffic on the screen. I know it will only show those squawking mode C but every bit of help is useful in my opinion.

Insterestingly at a recent CAA safety evening, I questioned the speaker (CAA chap - well known bloke in General Aviation this month) who was going on about a new Exeter Class D zone (and others). He said that if any VFR pilot gets a refusal to enter a zone we should MOR (report) it to the CAA. He said that CAS should not be an exclusion to VFR traffic (all well and good and all with a pair of rose tinted spectacles IMO).

llanfairpg, when you say "my" syllabus is that your personal one? Maybe my AOPA syllabus needing an update but the one I have does not mention emergency avoiding action.

I was never taught avoiding turns in the PPL as such...I was told that steep turns were useful for avoiding aircraft...but with the emphasis on height control and co-ordination they were not taught as an avoiding manoeuvre. I was briefly taught avoiding turns as an RAF cadet...roll on about 80 degrees angle of bank instantly and keep a bit of back pressure to stop excessive height loss.

According to the guys at transair the Zaon unit works with C and S. Not sure if it displays non height related A.

staffs crash site
 

on my way home i have just driven past admaston crash site 1545 hrs. in fading light.
crashed aircraft is still in open grass field about 2/300 metres from farm house and out buildings.
6 police cars at farm and several 'civiy' cars also parked. Police incident mobile in farm yard and some sort of hgv flatbed type vehicle parked at field gate nearest to crashed aircraft.
the wreckage seems all in one place and you can make out the outline of the craft. however from a distance looks burnt out???
Prayers and thoughts for the families.

sorry Robin-get bit prickly at suggestion that ATCO's sole purpose in life is to keep GA out of controlled airspace!
having seen what is now involved in getting any airspace application approved, and the hoops that must be jumped through when you have it then any further major expansion unlikely
on a personal note can not see why mandatory carriage of XPDR is needed, but then so far down food chain not likely to listen to me! seems to be the favourite flavour of the month, why you need to make a known traffic environment out of class G is beyond me
Pudnucker-you may be interested to now that we are required to log all transits, deviations and refusals of our class D, data passed to CAA

Be careful if you are going to practice emergency avoiding action turns - you could overstress the airframe on your aged PA28 / C172 as well as inducing an unwanted upchuck from your passengers.

IMHO, I suggest that you go to an aerobatic trainer to be shown how to do them properly and in an aircraft suitably certificated. Periodically repeat the exercise to keep your skills up.

In the hopefully unlikely event you have to do one for real, overstressing the airframe should and will be the last thing on your mind but I'd be reticent to risk damaging your pride and joy with practice emergency turns until you've become proficient.

Yes. I use mine on every flight and can confirm that is so.

Once you have one you will be amazed on how many aircraft it "spots" that you dont.

Subject to its limitation regarding non transponding aircraft and given the low cost it is a very worth while safety investment in my mind.

In fact I dont fly without one or full TCAS now.

Moreover the alert function gives you enough time to prevent a collision.

Utterly amazes me.......... so many half wit replies and suggestions
Some of you poor sky gods would be useless without your navaids, tcas, etc - Maybe this is just a really rare, really unfortunate case of LOW WINTER SUN and BLIND SPOTS....!
Im lucky to still be here, after a flight 10 years ago that nearly ended up with me being impalled by the 2 seat Jaguar from Boscombe Down.
Flying my Super Cub from Yeovil back to Bournemouth, straight and level talking and squawking to Yeovilton - luckily every couple of mins since i have been aviating i roll my wings in a little waggle effect to see if anyone is coming at me from right angles inc high or low both sides - that day it saved my life - just....!!! Closing fast along the right leading edge absolute 90 degrees to my direction is a fast jet - me 80kts - him 360kts - $ollocks this is going to be close - i know, i will show him a plan view of the Super Cub and he will pull right and climb - no sweat me thinks...!!
Now being a gliding instructor and knowing how to teach people to tickle weak thermals i know how to haul an a/c around - but on this instance to no avail - ok time for another roll reversal this is getting uncomfortable...... to no avail... staring on recover to wings level just about to impact i pushed very hard and left......
The noise, fear and andrelin i will never lose - and it is as vivid as the day it happened... - i manage to recover the aircraft without overstressing it, and then see the Jag pulling hard right to come back around - he came past higher and waggled his wings and i did also - no words, nothing but we both knew it was a close call - I called yeovilton to say thanks for telling me about the jag - they said "What Jag" - great - but i knew there was only 1 raspberry ripple jag - so thought i would call when i got back to HH.
Called on the phone to Boscombe ops and asked if the jag was back - it was just on finals - the instructor called me within 30 mins - i answered the phone and an amercan accent came down the line - "that was a nice Super Cub you got there....... That was very close and i sincerely apologise he said.. we were both head down planning the recovery to Boscombe and only saw you the split second your starboard wing went under our port..
Sorry bought that.........
He apologised, i learnt about flying from that - and lookout is the thing that should save you from rare events like this thread.....
condolences to families involved - but heads up not down...........!!

clearly AAIB will do its stuff - but looks on the outside to be just a terribly rare case of wrong place, wrong time....... sad but part of life..

I suppose I should take this opportunity to thank the pilot of the blue JP (I think it was a JP - it happened that fast) who nearly removed my left wing over Hanningfield Reservoir a couple of months back (I could post the date / time) in his screaming climb west to east straight into the clouds 500' above me. If he didn't see me, bad drills - pilots of faster a/c need to keep both eyes on the game all the time when manouevring; if he did see me (and I can't see how he could have failed to see the plan profile of the a/c silhouetted against the sky if he'd been looking where he was going) but thought it would be a good laugh to frighten the living daylights out of me and my student then he qualifies for the :mad: Pillock of the Year 2007.

Next time something like that happens I will file an Airprox - maybe I should have done so this time. It's happened to me that many times I'm past caring whether it gets someone into a world of crap!! :* Should we file Airproxes every time we have a near miss?

BTW, has anyone else noticed how many aircraft in the corridor between Luton / Stansted CTA and London CTR seem to have no concept of the right hand priority rule? Is this because they're glued to the GPS or BNN / LAM VOR indications or is it simply that they have no idea of the priority rule?

2nd aircraft

G-AKUI

Luscombe 8E


ref http://www.europeanluscombes.org.uk/...opic.php?t=256

The above doesn't concur with:- and:- So a low-wing aircraft thought to be travelling roughly north to south at a reported 1800 ft contacts a high-wing aircraft two miles (almost due) west of its base airfield* from which it is thought to have taken off. Any turn from the take-off runway heading to the wreckage position would involve banking to starboard.^ The low-wing aircraft sustains damage to the port undercarriage.
*no allowance made for drift of the stricken aircraft after the collision.
^reducing visibility above to the north.

Blind spots?

Aerial view:- http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.812412&...14&l=0&m=h&v=1

Edited to add:- "G-AKUI (cn 2464) Owned by David Sims of Stoke, Yeatsall Farm, Abbots Bromley, Staffs, UK - England" (following the above disclosure of the reg number)

Many of the A only ones you see probably have C fitted but have, for somewhat spurious reasons, willfully chosen to switch the C off. A questionable attitude to flight safety at best.

Re fanciful emergency turns and aerobatics training in spam cans: How many mid airs are caused by failing to avoid a plane you have spotted, and how many are caused by the aircraft failing to see each other/the sky being too small.

Tatenhill Airfield is 5.5 miles due east of Yeatsall Farm Airstrip:- http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.818507&...17&l=0&m=h&v=1
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.815421&...13&l=0&m=h&v=1

For those of you who use PocketFMS and also use a Zaon pcas device or FLARM, you'll be glad to know that the next version of PFMS will allow you to display the 'targets' from these devices on the PFMS moving map.



dp

More controllers better than more gadgetry in a/c
 

In my opinion, for what its worth, the LARS and ATC of the larger airports e.g. class D do an excellent job. Unfortunately, due to their limited resources they cannot always give a zone transit or RIS and sometimes only a limited FIS.
Many times when I have received a RIS or just a FIS this has helped me see aircraft in the vicinity that would have been hard to see otherwise e.g helicopters (faster moving a/c are sometimes easier to spot than slower helicopters or microlights, which may remain closer to you for longer).
I think a few more controllers available to assist GA light aircraft would be a better use of resources than all a/c having mode S or TCAS. To the guys and girls at LARS and at various airports like Luton and Farnborough keep up the good service.

To be honest, I'd support madatory Mode S transponders for all aeroplanes (& gliders) as long as we get something in return - TIS / ADS-B or whatever it is called. They can keep LARS then.....

When I rent in the USA , I always rent an aeroplane with TIS. It is crazy how many targets the eye fails to spot, even with a good lookout. TIS draws your attention and you THEN spot the traffic - it is a good thing.

Of course the chance of a collision is very small, but IF it happens, the chance of being killed is almost 100%. The people in the second aeroplane were very lucky.


I am going to buy one of the gizmo's Bose is on about to plug into my 496 in the mean time....

2close, well of course emergency turns should be taught by a flying instructor who knows the ins and outs of same - this means, amongst other things, that you must be below the max maneuvring speed and in the Utility Category (no rear pax permitted). So long as you take sensible precautions I would suggest that emergency avoiding turns can be safely practised in your average training a/c.

It goes without saying that if you had to do a REAL emergency avoiding action that momentary overstress is preferable to having a mid air collision.

G-CPTN - blind spots = flying directly into sun

2close - feel for you - altho at least mine was a consumate professional that held his hand up - it was interesting that the CAA were onto me like a bat out of hell trying to tell me to file air prox etc - but they fail to understand that sometimes we we need to carry moments like that for ourselves and only occasionaly let it out -

Mmmm. I don't know. I think if an emergency avoidance is necessary, then you don't necessarily roll into a steep turn. Instead, it'll be more of a reflex depending on the exact angle with which the other aircraft is closing. Compare it with playing soccer or baseball. Somebody shoots a ball at you and you want to avoid. There is no standard reaction. Instead, you watch the ball, figure out its trajectory and then duck, jump or twist your body to avoid, all in a split second. I think it works the same way in an aircraft. So you either pull into a steep climb, push over into a negative-g pushover or roll the aircraft over in some direction which you think might keep you clear, in a reflex. And you might not stop at 80 degrees, or whatever the limits of "utility category" are.

In any of these scenarios you might end up in an unusual attitude (to put it mildly). You might be pointing straight up and losing airspeed fast, or be inverted. The recovery you need from that is squarely in the aerobatic realm. To practice that safely needs an aerobatics capable aircraft capable of something like -3 to +6 g and temporarily inverted flight. Plus an instructor who knows a bit about aeros, wing root bending effect and the proper way to recover from unusual attitudes.

Pudnucker

During my Career I have been a safety adviser to Airspace Change Proposals, advisor to and member of the UK Airprox Board and served in the MOD in Aviation Safety.

Any proposal to increase the amount of CAS is stringently staffed with all operators/airspace users having input into the process. Obviously, the proposer always presents the 'Rolls Royce' solution first off and this is negotiated down to a more workable solution as part of the process. When it is clear that a potential bottleneck will occur it is often a pre-condition of the airspace change that a crossing service is made available for all airspace users.

Taking into consideration ALL of the changes to airspace that have taken place during the aviation explosion of the past 10 years we are still a long way off creating significantly greater 'choke points' than those that already occur. Personally, you wouldn't catch me flying between Booker and Princess Risborough without a team of Owls with me:eek:

Accordingly more Class D does not equal mid air collisions....it could be one of a number of factors but is only ever going to be contributory not causal.

Dipping my toe into the world of Safety Management, the potential for a mid-air collision is reduced by mitigating the risk by introducing layers of safety. Now these layers of safety could be receiving a radar service, having TCAS installed, legislation mandating the carriage of transponders or something as simple as not flying in marginal weather conditions. But, the very, very last layer of safety is see and avoid. If you fly with just that one layer of safety and that layer is marginalized by other factors then you are significantly increasing your chances of a mid air and all this has very little to do with the proliferation of CAS.

I didn’t mean to be antagonistic, but people have got to be realistic about airspace expansion. BUT, I share you frustration with regard to the lack of services available to GA, but 'who pays for LARS' is a debate not for this forum and controllers are not a surplus commodity these days.

if your in class g - concentrate on lookout - and by all means listen to the radio to gain an overview / mental picture of whats going on, but dont add to the problem by jammin ght frequency with utter twoddle to an unlicensed airfield, keep it simple, clear and to the point - but bottom line - heads up - lookout, keep the fun of flying dont destroy it with zillions of pointless proposals that only fit a minority - think of all the other users that use the airspace and are due equal safety in unrestricted airspace - 1 rule is all that is needed - see and avoid....!

A perfect example of blind spots in low-wings is highlighted here, in a mid-air collision between two PA-28's:

PA28 - Blind Spot


Very very sad for all those concerned, but it certainly makes interesting reading and I have sure learnt from it.

The strip at Abbots Bromley is at 350 ft, and the collision happened at 1800 ft.

Most aircraft of the type involved (I am not commenting on this specific example) use the armstrong start method and have no electrical systems. This, and the fact that the aircraft was probably only 90 sec or so from leaving the ground, make most of the comments about radar and radio of little relevance.

If the newer aircraft had been fitted with full TCAS it would have been unable to detect most of the traffic likely to be at 1800 ft in that area. There is no practical solution to allow a Xpder to be fitted to an aircraft with no electrical system at this time (the CAA acknowledge this). The busy gilding site at Cross Hays and the strips in the area containing mostly micros and permit types which are mostly not Xpder equipped.

25% of GA are micros, another 15% are permit types and about 20% are gliders. This does not take into account the paramotors, which outnumber the whole of GA. The vast majority of the above will not show up on TCAS. I have a plea to all the people with “electronic collision avoidance solutions”, on behalf of the majority of flying machines you may come into contact with, please do not give up on your lookout. I know it is popular to criticize see and avoid, but it is THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN, and the less we try to make it work, the more it will kill us.

Rod1
(with radio and Xpder)