I really wonder if this "looking for somewhere to break the speed record" thing hasn't been way overplayed. You can imagine it yourself... there you are on a beautiful day in an incredibly scenic place, a plane just waiting for you, and with people who you like well enough but have seen plenty of. So you say, "Maybe I'll just go flying for an hour or two, it's such a great day".

And someone says, "Oh, why, what are you planning to do?" And you're way too polite to say, "Nothing much, but it'll be a whole lot more interesting than sitting round yakking with you lot", so you say "Oh, I dunno, I thought maybe I'd, er, maybe look for some big flat lake somewhere, you know, for this speed record thing."

And you take off, and you look at the Sierras 15 mins flying away, and you say to yourself, "Maybe I'll just mosey over there and see if I can find that ridge where I hiked last year, maybe take another look at Yosemite from above".

And of course you go missing and that last thing you ever said to anyone suddenly becomes incredibly important, but you never really meant it.

n5296s

More than likely, n5296s.

It will be interesting to see how much effort the NTSB put in ;)

With little evidence (?), a light single and just a single fatality, it is a regrettably common GA accident :eek: The "unusual" aspect is how well known the fatality was... and I am not sure that is grounds for a much deeper than usual investigation?

NoD

Something along the lines of:

"Is there any obvious sign of a significant aircraft failure (structure/engine/controls)?"

"No"

"File it as NPD"

Is there a guesstimate on how long identifying the human remains (presumably through DNA testing) is going to last? Or is this already done and dusted, so that we're sure it was Steve?

"Or is this already done and dusted, so that we're sure it was Steve?"


Jesus! Another conspiracy theorist! No, Steve gets out of his Decathlon and swaps with a suicidal pilot [who's family will be recompensed by the grateful Steve Fossett] and surely they must look for the tyre tracks of Steve Fossett's escape car hidden nearby, or maybe the witness marks of the alien space craft that has whisked Steve off to the Scientologist's Planet!!! :rolleyes:

How much time was spent on Frank Tallman's crash in the Sierras or Neil Williams' in the Pyrenees?

What possible evidence [other than a note] could explain why another highly experienced pilot hits a granite filled cloud from the remains of the accident?

Oh, come on. I know that twenty years ago, before DNA testing, the NTSB would have examined the tail number, matched that with Steves, and then proclaim Steve dead. But now that we have DNA testing, I know that it is standard procedure to verify the remains through DNA, before Steve is "officially" declared dead.

So all I wanted to know is whether that official declaration has been issued, or whether we're still waiting for that 0.000001% chance that it isn't Steve.

Does a Decathlon have cabin heat ?

Thread creep I know but.........

The World seems to have to require 100% safety, proof, reliability, organic, carbon offset.......

Why do we need the last 0.0000001% of anything? It makes everything So expensive!

Regaining thread.......

Wish there were more Steve Fossetts around and less Al Gores!

No, the world does not require Many in the world (clients) require lawyers. Lawyers and their clients require We all wait and pay....

Pilot DAR

SoCal, thanks.

With both the NTSB investigation and DNA testing expected to take months, I guess there won't be any more news soon.

And if the area is indeed now covered in two feet of snow, even more so.

The debris field is quite large which suggests a glancing impact as opposed to "head on".

The right side cylinder heads / valve covers show damage while the left side shows no apparent damage in the photo.

One photo shows wreakage caught in a tree.

Looks like CFIT.

Perhaps an aerobatic maneuver gone wrong and/or entered too low? At 10,000' we have higher TAS and increased radii for turns and pullouts.

The actual DNA test won't take months. But there is probably a backlog at the state forensics lab. This testing is likely to be deemed a lower priority than DNA tests for active crime cases, so it goes to the back of the queue.

Yes. (10 characters required)

Photo 46 in higher resolutions shows the remains of the burnt-out fuselage structure in a copse which at first glance looks like a jumble of twigs:(

There are a few brightly painted bits, but a good likelihood that they were covered by subsequent snowfalls.

I wouldn't fault any searchers for missing this one.

Would this photo of a propeller suggest that it was not turning at the moment of impact?:confused:

40 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Machaca,
Thanks for the link!
Those photos alone are enough explanation why such scattered wreckage on a hillside outside the 'formal' search area wasn't found before.

Very good question about the cabin heat.
Its a simple shroud around the muffler that vents the air into the cabin. Dangerous as all get out if there is a carbon monoxide leak which just might have been what caused this incident. Atleast that would be consistent with the comments about high noise levels, the probable inverted attitude at impact, the engine developing power but apparently not full power and the pitch control possibly at cruise instead of climb.
Another possibility is bird strike incident.

Recapitulation of Search:

Flight was purely a pleasure flight; it was not to scope out flat racing sites.
He said he would follow a particular road and apparently did so only deviating to take a very scenic route to one of the 14,000 foot peaks he had not yet climbed but was one he intended to climb.
CHP sighting is consistent as to time and place.
Ranchhand Brawley at hill top cell phone conversation with his girlfriend was familiar with the plane and claimed to have seen it heading for Mud Flat near Hawthorne but this appears now to have been given too much weight by the searchers.

Where does the info about pitch and throttle settings come from, and the witness info? First I've seen of those.

As for CO - definitely a possibility, but then this Decathlon must be in a different class from all the Citabrias/Decathlons I've flown, which have howling gales through the cabin at all times from the numerous ventilation holes, intentional and otherwise. otoh since it belonged to the richest hotel-chain owner in the world, I guess it's possible - walnut-panelled Super-D with extra thick pillows and room service anyone?

n5296s

It was a plane belonging to Baron Hilton's Flying M Ranch and was used for spotting cattle in the brush that men on horseback would then go in and herd out of the brush. It was a working plane not a cushy play thing.

The sighting at Nine Mile Ranch as it flew overhead and was later seen as a distant speck heading for Mud Flat, Hawthorne area may have been a different date. Ranch hand had no particular reason to note the plane or the day and ranch hand was on vacation when interviewed at a rodeo in Pendleton, Oregon.

It is possible his observations were correct but too much weight was given to them and not enough to the pilot's own statements of his intentions that day.

Information on throttle settings and pitch settings is from analysis of photographs of the wreckage. Whatever situation there was instinct would have been to push the throttle all the way to the firewall so as to get every bit of power when it was most needed and propeller pitch would have been all the way to climb rather than cruise since a desperate climb was needed. The only thing that is consistent with the reports of noisy operation, improper throttle and pitch settings and inverted attitude is medical impairment due to carbon monoxide. Obviously its speculative at this point in time, probably not ever going to be verifiable without body tissue and probably based on only a rudimentary analysis of the debris field.

It appears he deviated from intended IFR track (I Follow Roads) solely to take the most scenic route to a peak he would later be climbing. This shows a functioning mind at the beginning of the deviation. Which would leave insidious intoxication by carbon monoxide or bird strike as disabling features causing a flight into steeply rising terrain at an inverted attitude.

Seems there is agreement that the machine was reasonably ventilated.

Re the claimed altitudes the aircraft was suposed to be flying at, and references to needing O2 - would it require much carbon monoxide to affect the pilot ? ...even allowing for the ventilated cabin.

Reasonable ventilation does not negate insidious effect of carbon monoxide. Hemoglobin has an affinity for oxygen but it has a 300 percent greater affinity for carbon monoxide and extra ventilation will not induce the hemoglobin to let go of the carbon monoxide and pickup oxygen instead.

Inverted??
Well there are TWO indications. Blue paint on rock as first known impact with blue paint on the top of the aircraft and orange paint on the bottom. Also engine travelled 300 feet UPhill and crankshaft fracture is consistent with inversion.

Bird strike?? Personal ID, which I originally assumed had been dispersed by animals, may have been blown from cockpit by bird strike some distance from point of initial impact. There was a fire after the crash but none of the personal items bear fire indications.

Maybe it should just be accepted that he wasn't that good a pilot without a back up team to guide him.

Which photos?

On what evidence do you base that? Do you have access to a map of the wreakage distribution or were you on the scene?

The NTSB will be slow, ponderously so, often neglectful of certain avenues of inquiry, but above all else: slow!
I do indeed realize that much of this is speculative and second-hand, but its better than nothing.

I've had contact with two sources. Already there is confusion as to their use of the word 'plastic': plastic identification covering or plastic canopy shards?

I wish data was more readily available and more precise, but the NTSB just keeps its yap shut until the preliminary report and then waits and issues a final report when everyone but the lawyers have forgotten about the incident.

I see FoolsGold has already covered it - but in pilot speak.

Perhaps a Decathlon pilot would care to answer in more layman terms re, How would a Decathlon fly if the pilot was incapacitaited ?

If the Decathlon was trimed for cruise, would it just fly straight and level until it ran out of fuel or rock free air ? or, would the aircraft start to wander about the sky doing progressively more aggressive 'aerobatics' ?

I have never flown a Decathlon in my life but since everybody here seems to be speculating anyway, I'll throw in my two cents as well...

My guess is that the Decathlon would behave like any other light aircraft when trimmed for the cruise: It will either cruise straight on until running out of fuel and then descend at cruise speed until it hits terrain, or gradually bank over and go into a spiral dive.

But I cannot imagine a scenario where an aircraft would spontaneously go into aggressive aerobatics, or start to fly inverted, without a conscious and extreme control input.

I have never come across a "normal" aircraft which is stable in roll.

All normal ones are stable in pitch, which means they will either climb to the ceiling for that engine setting (or available output), or descend into the ground.

But all of the above will enter a spiral dive within minutes at most. My TB20 is one of the most stable types but it will be in a dive certainly within minutes. From a few thousand feet, you would hit the ground close to vertical, at well over Vne. But I doubt it would actually end up inverted.

The one thing I noticed in the photos is that the cylinders got ripped off on one side but hardly damaged on the other. Assuming a conventional flat four, this suggests hitting the terrain with the side, not upside down, and not vertically either.

Virtually every certified aircraft I have ever flown is stable in roll as well as pitch. AFAIK it is part of the certification requirements.

The only aircraft I have flown apart from a few twitchy permit types that displayed the symptoms IO describes were incorrectly rigged.

In smooth air my Cessna when trimmed will fly for hours in a straight line hands off.

With all due respect peter, it might be worth looking at the rigging on your aircraft if it is rolling like that as it is certainly unusual.

You will find with the 22 if you set the aircraft in a 45 degree bank (or whatever you like) take your hand of the side stick it will go round and round forever - well at least until it runs out of fuel or you feel sick.

Most certified aircraft are very stable in roll and pitch - after all that is what the designers want these days.

Move towards aerobatic aircraft and that of course changes. However, even things like the FA200, my namesake, is pretty stable in roll and pitch. In contrast the Extra (in which I only have a couple of dozen hours) seemed to me to be stable in neither. The Bambi (on permit) which I have also flown given that it is not aerobatic is, IMO, completly unstable, but fun. I wouldnt want one however.

(Edited to add: I suppose stability is a relative term. If you havent flown very many types an FA200 compared with say a Cessna will seem unstable in roll and pitch. If the aircraft is badly rigged (always a possibility) some one who is familiar with the type will have agood idea whether the rigging is off.)

One "learns" something every day

In the case of rolling motion, there is no feature of an airplane which provides static roll stability per se.

Indeed one should learn something every day. Lateral Stability (static or dynamic) is not normally defined with regards to rolling motion. The 'roll' is directly linked to a slip and if you bothered to read all of the document you quoted, you would note that stability in a slip (roll) can be achieved with a wide variety of methods. Also, from FAR 23:



However, the requirements of 23.177(b), static lateral stability, do not apply to to acrobatic category airplanes certificated for inverted flight. So, in this circumstance, there appears to be no legal requirement for a Super Decathalon to be statically stable. Whther it is or not, I do not know.

I have flown a Super -D (only twice). It was reasonably stable in both pitch and roll, very similiar to the FA200 (on which I have over 1,500 hours).

The Super D is kind of normal as far as stability goes.

I agree with IO540 that indefinite hands-off stability is not the norm. In fact if you give an aeroplane too much roll stability, you get dutch roll, and as I understand it a limited degree of spiral divergence is generally considered preferable. After all the idea is not that you can fall asleep (or die) and the plane will fly until it's out of fuel, it's just to avoid what happens in the movies where the moment the pilot takes his hand of the yoke, the plane careens earthward.

If a plane is trimmed for level flight and it enters a stable bank, then the nose will start to drop and that is the departure point for a spiral dive.

My 182 will certainly fly hands off for 30 seconds or so, but then it does start to turn. I haven't left it to see what happens over a longer period, but I will next time I fly it.

Of course if you are incapacitated, especially in a plane with a stick, it's quite likely that the controls will not be free anyway.

Be all that as it may, spiral diveregence leads eventually to hitting the ground more or less vertically, which did not happen in this case.

At this point I'd say the little available evidence suggests that he found himself making a canyon turn and just didn't get it to turn tightly enough. There is very little horizontal space in the area where he crashed. Although he was an experienced pilot, I don't remember seeing that he had aerobatic experience, so (like the SR20 in New York) he may not have been comfortable making a *really* tight turn. And it's possible that in the last couple of seconds when he realised how close he was, that maybe he did pull/bank harder and enter an "unusual attitude" - maybe snapped or something - which could explain - if indeed it is the case, for which personally I have not seen convincing evidence - that he was inverted (but not vertical) when he hit.

n5296s (or maybe n452s in this case)

I agree with n5296s. I don't know the SD but I doubt there is any common low wing plane which does not have spiral divergence. That would amount to indefinite static roll stability!! In calm air, it would fly a constant heading forever. Nice, but I would think sales of the old wing leveller autopilots would have been pretty poor :) Every Cessna or Piper I ever flew would go into a spiral dive quite happily.

Flying a banked turn (a constant orbit) is not quite the same thing as static roll stability. One could indeed fly a constant 5 degree orbit in a C152, seemingly indefinitely, if trimmed appropriately. But the same plane would always enter a spiral dive from trimmed straight and level flight, eventually.

IO540

I think there is a difference between being stable in roll and eventually departing. Without having read all the previosu posts a Super-D is relatively stable in roll (from my limited experience). It is possibly less stable than a TB20, but not by much, and a great deal more stable than some other aircraft I have flown.

Perhaps your point was that eventually any aircraft will depart in the horizontal axis?

That said there is a very well documented case of the Cessna that took off without the pilot and some while later landed with no damage at all. A case of divine intervention in the horizonatal and vertical axis perhaps or proof that the big fella got his PPL.

Perhaps some time with an Instructor would help sort this out?

In still air my Cessna correctly trimmed and loaded will fly in in a straight line for a very long time. And I am pretty sure it is a standard example of a 30 year old spam can.

Spiral dive recovery is specifically demonstrated in the Bonanza Pilot Proficiency Program. In good VMC nobody will have any problem with it, but a pilot trained on say a 172 who gets his hands on a Bonanza in IMC may have more than he wanted unless trained for it.

Here is some serious reading:

Angle of Attack Stability, Trim, and Spiral Dives [Ch. 6 of See How It Flies]

At the first PPLIR meeting in Kortrijk (1997?) I gave a paper on Spiral Dive Recovery and anyone who was present will remember it, I even got email messages from enthousiastic members who tried it on the way home.

Of the dozen airplanes I'm checked out in, including the Super Decathlon, not one of them will not enter a spiral dive if left alone, never was checked out in any Cessna however.

Bose

Is the problem that many people spend all their time with the autopilot engaged. I use to do a lot of flying in an aircraft in which I couldnt engage the autopilot - there wasnt one. Particularly in IMC once CORRECTLY trimed it would fly itself for literally miles even very often in the lumps and bumps of the clouds.