Hey!

Very intresting to read this guide. I know a instructor in the US, but im from Norway. I really want to take the FAA PPL, then convert when im home. I have been in contact with the embassy with things i need to do before i leave, but do i need a flight school to full out the form I-20? Does it need to be a flight school, since I just know a instructor?

Explore, if you intend to do a full-time course (which is 18 hours or more of practical work per week) you are not allowed into the US under the visa waiver program. So you need an M-1 visa for which you need the I-20 form plus some other paperwork

The visa needs to be "sponsored" by a flight school and for this to work the flight school needs to be SEVIS approved. There are two types of schools: part 61 and part 141 (or something like that) and only one of those types is SEVIS approved by default.

Theoretically you can wiggle your way out of this if the course is part-time and not the main objective of your stay in the US. But that's a rare situation and most officials (including the friendly INS official that decides whether you're admitted into the US or not) will expect you to have an M-1. So it's probably you who will have to explain/prove that you don't need a visa for what you're attempting.

In addition to this, I understand that the TSA (which needs to approve things in your case anyway) checks for the M-1 visa and will ask questions if you don't have one.

Sooo.... Good luck! Let me know if things worked out as planned.

To do a private certificate, IR or multi, you would need to go through the TSA process which require visa details. So while in theory a part time can get you under the wire as far as a visa is concerned it wont with the TSA.

Moral is dont play fast and loose with the rules, get the visa, do the TSA and go fly.

It's been discussed here on pprune before and the general consensus of the population here was that it's not the TSAs job to verify you have a visa. In fact, if you look at the original ruling on the TSA process (a very dense PDF file on the TSA website) you'll find that the word "visa" is only mentioned twice or so, in a completely different context.

It is true that the TSA, as part of the information gathering on you, ask for your passport number and visa details. But as far as I know, the site allows you to specify "no visa". (Mind you, it was three years ago that I went through this process and this is something that I don't remember clearly, plus the site has been changed in the meantime.)

But if the TSA *requires* you to have a visa somehow you can point them to their own regulations and say they're wrong. Particularly if you can prove that you do not need a visa according to the INS for whatever you are going to do.

All we need is a brave soul to test out this theory though.:}

=======================

To add, I just browsed the AFSP website, and here's what the website itself has to say about this on the pages where you submit your personal information:

So it looks like the TSA simply follows INS rules on whether a visa is required or not. There doesn't seem to be a blanket visa requirement for all cases.

Well, the only reasonable advise is to get a visa. You dont want to be blacked by the Immigration service or the TSA. Think of your next TSA application when one has been withdrawn for an immigration violation.

Might keep you out of the country even if you are only going to Disney with the kids.

A pretty dumb and dangerous thought mind you.

There is no 'fixed' link between TSA and having a visa. "Been there, done that" with TSA, without visa...

All fully legal and correct - the key point: the MAIN reason for your stay in the US is...?

Sam.

TSA and Visa's
 

I agree the need for a visa is based on the primary reason for your visit to the US. I did not bother with it last time I went to the US on business.
Particularly as the expense and hassle of an 800 mile round trip and a day lost for the visa interview did not appeal.

From experience the TSA don't ask for any visa details but they do want to know who you are from your passport.

They can cancel the training permission if they find out that you are there without the necessary visa - but then you would have to argue necessary etc. as discussed above.

Do you have information on this ever happening?

TSA and Visa's
 

nope - only quoting the blurb the TSDA sent me.

As above the visa requirement is down to the primary reason for your visit and not the flying which you may or may not do on the side.
It helps I guess to do the TSA paperwork after you arrive to avoid any argument and in my case it only took three days.

I vaguely recall, SoCal, that this 18hrs thing was done here before, and it is contained within the primary U.S. Visa legislation. I can probably dig out some references you could follow up.

The reason why the TSA etc don't refer to it is because they don't create law; they are just writing their own interpretations of it because they like to feel they can.

The bottom line is however purely practical - I doubt any school (except maybe some very small ones) in the USA will touch the candidate with a 20ft bargepole unless he comes with the gold plated paperwork...

My experience of people involved in the FAA training business (including some in the UK) is that most are simply not interested in reading the regs. Not just the security regs but also stuff like eligibility of previous training. I spent 2005 trying to do the IR here in the UK but gave up after just about everybody claimed that all eligible previous training had to be done with FAA instructors :ugh: These are the real problems in this game.

Can anyone tell me how long the TSA clearance takes from submitting the online form?

I know you have to have your fingerprints taken as well before the whole process is complete but how long does the form take to process?

Thanks SoCal App. My situation is at the moment is that I want to start the TSA process, but I don't have the Visa yet, and probably won't have until quite close to leaving for the US.

Should I get underway with the TSA without entering a Visa on the form or do I need to wait until I have the Visa?

Definitely go ahead with the TSA process. Having a visa is not a requirement for starting the TSA process.

The www.flightschoolcandidates.gov site asks you for visa details but you can just leave that empty for now, and change it once you get the visa.

If everybody plays ball, the initial TSA process, up to the point where you are asked to submit fingerprints, should take no more than a week.

It takes about 2 months total.

Allow for c0ckups like the I-20 form going to the wrong address... U.S. schools are sometimes less than great when it comes to working out how to address a package to a "foreign" country. My I-20 got lost because they sent it to a UK instructor who was acting as their agent over here, and he was not around to sign for the package. Actually that caused me a lot of hassle because that school could not be used, and they resulted in a 'training not completed' entry on the US Immigration computer, and now anytime I enter the USA I get treated like a terrorist, with special interrogation.

Could someone answer me this please?

How many pages does the I20 form have? I've been sent one with three pages....but I was under the impression it consisted of four.

which schools to go to or avoid
 

This is one of the most informative threads about flying in the us, iv looked at a lot of sites and I think that flyOFT,flyoba, naplesair,all look very impressive and seem to cater for the foreign student. There are also a lot of others such as taildraggesect.com which can claim to get you a ppl within 2 weeks. To be honest I am a bit confused for which one I should go for. Has anyone any bad experiences and do many people fail the test or have to take over 60hours to get it?

Well, those schools are not JAA schools so they cannot give you a JAA PPL directly. As the audience in here is predominantly (though not exclusively) a European audience, you might want to try one of the more US-centric forums to ask your question.

As for a PPL in two weeks: yet is it is possible provided that:
- You have studied all the theory beforehand and preferably done all the theory exams beforehand.
- You lose no days because of bureaucratic issues like TSA fingerprinting, doctor visits for your medical etc.
- You have excellent weather throughout.
- You are able to cope with three flights per day, every day, an hour or more each, plus preparation, brief, debrief.
- You are prepared to have no life whatsoever outside the flight school for two weeks straight.
- 45 flight hours are enough to prepare you for the skills test - in other words you've got to have normal aptitude and not overrun the 45 hours requirement.
- You pass the skills test first time
- There are no aircraft going tech
- There's excellent instructor availability and examiner availability

I met virtually all of these requirements, and yet found it challenging to finish in 21 days.

But hey, why not enroll on a 14-day course but simultaneously make sure your financial, vacation, accommodation and travel arrangements and so forth are all flexible so that you can overrun to 21 days or more? Who knows, it might just work out.

I dont mind about having no time outside of the course but Id rather go where people went previously and have given positive feedback form the experience such as Orlando Flight Training which is the one I think you went to.

You are right it isnt a JAA school that does it in two weeks and i think id be better of going to a JAA. You have answered my question. What are the JAA schools with the best reputations for getting the PPL within 3 weeks and possibly an instrument rating after that.

Well, nobody here has been to all of them so I don't think you'd be able to find anybody here that can compare one to another. And it's also next to impossible to get your hands on statistics like hours to the skill test, pass rates and such. So you just have to pick one and hope for the best, really.

As for the IR, I don't think you can do a JAA IR outside the JAA member states (ie. Florida). I don't know why exactly, but my guess is that it has to do with weather being wildly different.

In any case, I don't think it would be a good idea to do the IR straight after your PPL skills test. Better build some experience first, decide on the type of flying you're going to do and then make the decision. An IR is useful for serious touring but if serious touring is not your piece of cake, or doesn't match with your budget, it's a waste of money. And the currency rules for an IR are even stricter than for a VFR PPL so you might end up throwing good money after bad if you find you don't use your IR regularly enough.

(Having said that, if you intend to go commercial, you can do your IR straight after your PPL and use those training hours to count towards your CPL.)

As far as I know it isn't possible to do the JAA IR in the US...it's just a requirement of the rating that it is done in a JAA country.

One school that I do know of - and have heard good things about - which has just gained JAR approval for PPL is Florida Aviation Career Training in St Augustine.

I'm going there to do the FAA IR soon so I'll see what it's like.

Travelling to USA under Visa waiver program?
 

Forgive me if this is common knowledge outside of the USA, but I stumbled across a new program, designed by the Department of Homeland Security, for travellers.

This is irrelavent to anyone with a visa, but from January 12th, 2009, anyone wishing to board an aircraft to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program must first be pre-approved by the DHS.

Approval is available right now, is valid for up to two years and is currently free of charge. Airlines, apparently, will not allow anyone to board their aircraft after this date unless they have the pre-approval document in their possession.

The document *DOES NOT* guarantee right of entry into the USA - but does guarantee that you will not board the aircraft at your departure point without one.

Full details available at;

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/ and

https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/WebHel...ine_Help_1.htm

The first link is the application - the second is an FAQ sheet.

If you have anything to add to this - there's an "open" thread in Professional Training forum.

I have applied for Sunstate aviation for FAA PPL, and they claim that I dont need a interview at embassy, and the M-visum. I will go under the turist visa, since its less than 18 hours per week?

But I do need to get TSA approval.

Explore, I think you will find that noone here will touch this issue anymore, not even with a bargepole. It's been discussed here without a clear outcome and since getting it wrong might be very costly for some people, we don't want to give a clear yes/no on this anymore.

Let me try to summarize the principles of the US visa process and then tell you where the pain points are. You can then draw your own conclusion on whether to obtain an M-1 visa or not.

First off, the principle is that everyone entering the US has to have a visa. M-1, M-2, B-1, whatever. However, since the US receives so many visitors from Europe and a few other 'western' countries, the process of having all these people apply for a visa would be too involved and costly.

So the US has invented the "Visa Waiver Programme" (VWP). IF you are from any of the qualifying countries, IF you are not a terrorist, AIDS patient or any of the other things that are asked about on the green form, IF you arrive in the US by a scheduled airline or boat service, or overland, and IF your purpose is short-term business or tourism you can apply for the VWP scheme by filling in the green card they hand you in the aircraft. It is then finally up to the friendly INS officer at the airport to decide whether you indeed qualify, and are admitted under the VWP program.

If you do not qualify for the VWP program you have to get a visa of some sort. This means presenting yourself at the embassy, filling in forms, depositing fingerprints and money, and waiting a few days for your passport to be returned. Takes about three hours in total, plus travel time, and getting an appointment might take two months in busy periods, depending also on the type of visa you require.

There are several visa types. One of the visa types is a "tourist visa". This is given to people who visit the US as a tourist but do not apply for the VWP program, for instance because they are not from a qualifying country, or for instance if they enter the US in a way that's not allowed under the VWP (by private aircraft for instance).

(The reason for the latter is that under the VWP, if the INS officer deems that you do not qualify, the airline *has to* fly you back to your country of origin - airlines have to sign contracts to this effect with the US government before they're allowed to transport VWP-qualifying people to the US. This isn't possible for private aircraft, hence people flying in on private aircraft automatically do not qualify for the VWP.)

The most important visa type in the context of flying training is the M-1 visa. This is for short-term study and is *required* if your main purpose for visiting the US is getting trained in something. Now "main purpose" is a rather loose definition and for vocational studies, is interpreted as "more than 18 hours of practical work" per week or "22 hours of classroom studies".

The big issue, to which nobody has been able to answer sufficiently, is whether this 18-hour interpretation also applies to flight training, and if so, what is included in this 18 hours: actual flying only, or pre- and post-flight briefs too? Flight preparation? Ground studies? Self studies?

In any case, if you fly to the US solely to obtain your FAA PPL (and maybe have some fun on the side) it can be argued (and the INS officer will probably do just that) your main purpose, according to the immigration law, is study, not tourism or business, and you therefore have to have an M-1 visa. He can, I think, brush aside the 18-hour requirement as being not applicable in this case. And without a visa, that means you're going home on the next flight.

If you want to go to the US under the VWP for flight training, I'd make damn sure that the INS agrees with this beforehand, by getting their specific interpretation of the law in writing, applicable to your situation. And, obviously, if you don't qualify for the VWP program outright (I have no idea about Norways status for instance) the difference between getting a tourist visa and a student visa is negligeable and not worth this discussion.

Oh, and if you think about dodging the question and just telling the INS that you're going to be a tourist for three weeks, think again. Although the TSA doesn't check your visa status outright (as I understand), it does say in their regulations that they can withhold training permission (and worse) if they find you training without the proper immigration status. This can have serious repercussions, not just for you but for the school as well.

Well, I talked with the US embassy. Here is the response: "If the primary purpose of your travel is to obtain a private pilot’s license, then you need to find a school that will be able to issue the forms necessary for a student visa. If the studies are incidental to your reasons for being in the US, such you have a winter home in the US and will take the classes as part of your vacation, then you can travel on a tourist visa"

Do you have that in writing . . . . . . . .?

Yes, that was the answer I got via mail.

FAA or JAA PPL
 

Firstly Hello,
New to the forum and flying but have enjoyed looking through your posts.
Could you help with a few questions?

I have started reading the study books and was thinking of flight training in the US partly because of the price and the better weather and also for a 3-4 week adventure (Dorset can be very dull) had planned to get ground school done before going.
Is the Faa ppl acepted for flying in Europe and if so is it an easier qualification to obtain?
From what I've read it seems to be, but would be nice to clarify.

Thanks
John

The FAA PPL is accepted by the UK CAA for a G-reg plane, for worldwide VFR flight. This acceptance is automatic.

I don't know of another European country that does that. Others do various forms of validation but with various restrictions - largely to protect their domestic flight training business.

Flight training is NOT a holiday however. It is hard work. If you go to the USA for a holiday, hoping to pick up a PPL, forget it.

You also need to get the writtens and the medical out of the way before you go out there - unless you are going for quite a number of weeks.

I've sent you a PM.

It is absolutely not easier to obtain an FAA PPL. In fact, i would say that it's easier to obtain a CAA/JAR FCL licence. I know, i have done both.

I'm now working on my FAA-IR, the written material might be less, the practical level is very high, you end up being a descent pilot with FAA licences.

Quite agree on that....there are some things on the FAA Private like the ground reference maneuvers that I have simply never done and the amount of material on the whole course is more than JAR; consequently the average time to complete the FAA one is higher (someone once told me about 70hrs although that is probably out of date). JAR has more ground though.

The other 'gotcha' the FAA one has (which is usually not a problem if one is doing the thing over a month or so for example) is that the examiner for the skills test has the power (and I've seen this happen) to abandon the flight test before starting it if s/he feels the candidates knowledge of airspace/systems etc is not up to scratch during pre-test questioning. This gets more intense as one goes up the ratings....for CFI some people will get up to 6hrs of discussion and questioning before even getting into the aircraft for their check ride.

The only other thing that is perhaps worth mentioning is that my instrument rating instructor reckoned that the FAA did have a slight problem with maintaining high standards for the IR and that he knew people who in his opinion shouldn't have been granted their IRs. This is perhaps inevitable to some extent considering that while the CAA employs staff examiners to conduct initial IRs the FAA doesn't (it does for CFI though). My examiner for instrument seemed like a firm but fair type though and although he could have made the whole thing a lot harder I felt pushed and that is ultimately how it should be....

That's right, the examiner can fail you on the oral exam alone.

I don't buy that - if one is talking about relevant flying competence. If one is talking about flying NDB holds to 0.1 degree accuracy :) then certainly the JAA system is going to be more rigorous, but if one was going to match competence to the actual requirements of IFR flight, there is no difference between the two.

In truth neither system prepares you fully for European private IFR flight - there are loads of operational details which are not taught. The FAA system gets away with it because it does teach you what you need to know for flying IFR in the USA. The JAA system gets away with it because the vast majority of the output ends up in the airlines, in the RHS with a captain in the LHS and the captain keeps an eye on things.

The majority of instructors teaching the JAA stuff are highly prejudiced against the FAA regime and everything connected with it. The vast majority of them have zero knowledge of any FAA training, and the vast majority of JAA instructors have never flown private IFR to anywhere significant. The FAA IR flight training is bl00dy hard work and 10 times harder than anything that's needed for real.

And a few months after the IR checkride it's all irrelevant because there are 3 things that matter in IFR flight

currency on type
currency on type
currency on type

:)

IO540 I think you slightly misunderstand me....I wasn't saying that the FAA standards are lower than JAA; all I was saying was that in the opinion of my FAA CFI there are some 'soft' examiners out there in the US that perhaps do not always uphold the standard set. That was simply his view having instructed in the US for a while, worked in a US flying school and seen a variety of students/examiners (as far as I know he has only ever known the FAA system).

While I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is systematic one can surely see considering that the FAA has less control over IR checkrides than the CAA does that this could happen occasionally.

I promise I'm not 'getting at' the FAA.....in the ongoing FAA vs. JAR debate I am on your side. :ok:

OK, CT, I accept there is a possible weakness :)

The real Q however is whether this matters at all.

The actual skills set required for actual IFR flight is so far below the training/checkride level, it hardly matters.

In my FAA IR, I spent two weeks (this is post-IMCR, and with 500hrs TT and about 80hrs on instruments before starting the IR) being totally knackered every day, banging VORs, LOCs, GSs, DMEs, you name it. Partial panel approaches with just the compass and using timed turns, down to minima every time. Just to get that magical bit of paper.

But what does one actually do in Europe? It's all RNAV so you fly on the GPS. The only time I use conventional navaids is for the occassional SIDs - my rather simple IFR GPS (KLN94) has poor representations of these procedures - and of course when flying an ILS.

Indeed......;)

Anyway returning to a more mundane question could anyone advise me as to whether or not one needs to go through the whole TSA/VISA thing again if one wants to upgrade one's FAA IR from single to multi (assuming one already has an MEP rating)?

Well the TSA got back to me about the Multi upgrade for my IR and said that no I didn't need to go through the program.

Reality for me:

1)
Get Fingerprints...1 year later TSA say your application hasn't been complete because Flight school didnt bother to do something with them...so I was flying unnaware for 3 weeks...

2)
OFT take you upstairs and slap on an insurance thing of about $200...I declined it...I can't believe they would do this after all my emails asking about hidden fees.

3)
They don't tell you about signing off a sheet of paper to do with the exams...even when they knew you were departing and told them several times.

Hi guys,
I was supposed to be going to OBA at the end of August and had my M-1 visa issued already. I was just wondering if anyone knows if it is possible to delay the start date at all? I did call but I did not really understand what the person on the phone was saying, and I was paying £1.20/min..

Basically, I would kind of like to put the flying off for 6 months or so due to finances not being as good as initially anticipated. Stupid to realise now after spending out all of this money on visas etc! Hopefully there is a way to change the date, if not I will be screwed :ooh:

Thanks for replying!
Nope, I actually have not paid them anything at all yet. I would pay the full balance on arrival.

I haven't received my passport back yet, but I will check the validity as soon as it does. I will also shoot an email off to the FTO, and possibly call them tomorrow morning.

Thanks for the help

Hi Guys,

I'm off to florida in January and have enrolled with a flight school, now on the documents I have recieved it states that I must not book flights before obtaining my visa. Problem is I booked these flights a while ago! Is this going to cause me any problems with my visa application?

Cheers for any help!

Nope. It's just that if you are not able to obtain your visa for some reason, the flights may not be refunded.

Cases like this, it's always best to get the bureaucratic showstoppers (medical, visa and TSA clearance) out of the way before committing any money in the undertaking.