buying the first plane
 

I'm doing my PPL at the moment in Melbourne, Australia and am looking into buying a plane, most likely either a Warrior or a 172. At first glance it looks simple enough:

Purchase cost
Insurance roughly 5% of purchase cost
Maintenance approximately $4000 every 100 hours or 12 months
Hangarage approx. $500 a month at Moorabbin or Essendon

What are the traps I might not be aware of, and what advice would those who have gone before me have on buying a plane? I'd estimate I will fly between 100 & 150 hours a year. Any help will be appreciated.

I have three things to say:
1. Pre-purchase inspection.
2. Pre purchase inspection
3. Pre purchase inspection.

how would one arrange a pre-inspection-thingie? - i too am in a similar situation, keen to get my first aeroplane.

As long as it's not to save money.

When you take everything into account, including the mechanical risk factor, it's cheaper to rent and if you go to someone offering 150 hours of rental in a year even cheaper.

Definitely go for it, inspection & tracing history.

Then realise it's cheaper to rent & ditch it in a couple of years & find someone else who can take the risk! :ok:

BW

I bought my 1st aircraft in March 2006 (an aged PA28 with an IFR fix which should allow me to do my IMC) and reckon that 160hrs has cost me £11k inc everything (except purchase and engine fund). But more to the point, it's lovely to have your own ship that is kept as you like it, and not broken by anyone else. A huge luxury, I realise, and I really should find some other folk to share the cost with, but having it all to myself is really wonderful nonetheless. (God knows how i'll feel when I cop the 1st big bill, though).
But a really good inspection, carried out by someone you trust is a must; anything less than what effectively amounts to an annual, probably won't protect you very much. And yes, in the long term, renting makes more financial sense and a group membership even more so. Just remember, your aspirations will be limited by the meanest member of the group, so make sure you are with likeminded souls!

I bought my first aircraft 2 years ago, and I found it a very big and nerve racking step, especially as I didn’t really know much about them. So I am very familiar with the uncertainty you must be feeling.
I am sure that if you publish the name of airfield at which your prospective aircraft is based, some one on this forum will know of a locally available and reliable A&P whom you could hire to do a pre-purchase inspection. Most G.A. A&P’s will be very familiar with the 172, so it shouldn’t be too hard to find one.
The Cessna owner’s website no doubt contains a good check list to guide him, and advice to you on how to proceed on resolving the problems found. Take the time to attend the pre-purchase inspection, this will help familiarize you with your new ‘pride and joy’, and make you a little more comfortable with the decision to part with all that hard earned cash.
Like all advice, you can take it or leave it, but whatever you do, do not proceed without a pre-purchase inspection.
Better the devil you know, than the devil you don’t.
Good Luck,
White Bear. :ok:

Stall, have you considered the amazing fixed wing microlights that are around ? jabiru / ct2k / etc etc
you can get a brand new one, for the price of an ageing GA ship, the maintenance and running is a fraction of what you'd also pay for a normal GA type, and they do everything the ship you mentioned will do.
just a thought

Its a minefield
 

After trying to buy into a couple of local syndicates that offered shares, and they didn't have the courtesy to even get back to us, I decided that our own little plane would be a better idea.

However despite getting an inspection done, it got back to me eventually through friends that we had bought a bad un...(how come you never hear that before you buy a lemon).
We have found that despite all the logs and previous history, the magnetos were very iffy, broken spark plugs, lots of silly little things that weren't detected on our couple of short test flights, its very difficult to spot things, until the dreaded beast is yours!!...

Hourly rate probably not much better than school plane at the moment as the annual was bigger than anticipated, however there is a lot to be said for your own little toy on a quiet strip, just need the weather to improve.

So not only get an inspection done, check out the previous maintenance organisations if at all possible, talk to people at the field the plane is based? in the last year we have learn't a lot if in future we ever repeat the exercise, the downside is £20 - £25K does not buy a lot of aeroplane
But whatever your budget...homework required by the shed load!!
Happy Flying
~Al~

Hey Stall Warning,

I'm now on the 20th anniversary of my Cessna 150 purchase, and I look back with delight the whole way. Perhaps it could have been less good as other people seem to suggest, but with a good prepurchase inspection, proper maintenance, and regular use, I've put 2400 hours on it, and it's worth about 4 times what I paid for it! I figure that somehow, it's been paying me to fly it!

There are very good books on the "Cessna 172" and the "Piper Indians", which if I recall are written by "Clark" and published by TAB. I have them, and can get you exact information if you like. These books provide a wealth of insight into things to watch for when you are shopping.

My Advice:

Don't buy any more plane than the minimum you need - Are you going to carry three more people around a lot? Do you want your whole family in the plane with you? You can still rent bigger for the occasional trip if you need it. Don't forget about the lowly C150/152 or Piper Tomahawk (yes it's me, I'm the guy who WOULD consider owning one, but my runway is not well suited. There's a lot to be said good for them in the right environment - no snowbanks though)

Avoid ownership partnerships - it's like lending money to a friend, it seems to go wrong a lot, then who can afford to buy the other person out. Buy a cheaper plane all yourself in the first place.

Find an independent aircraft mechanic familiar with the type you're looking at, and PAY that person for their qualified opinion on the condition of the plane. This inspection should involve tools, and take hours.

Avoid Lycoming "H" model engine powered aircraft (later 172's), they seem to have frequent (and very costly) camshaft trouble.

Assure that all AD's have been completed.

An unusually low airframe time can be as worrysome as a high one (it sat a lot, and expensive things rusted and corroded)

Assure that the engine oil screen is examined, or the oil filter is cut apart for examination (you'll be having to pay the cost of that work and parts - it's only fair). This should be your first indicator of "making metal" in the engine (wear you don't want to be paying for).

Or... If you'll keep the plane for a long time, buy a FLYABLE junk heap for a low price, and invest some money in it. It will cost you more, but you'll know what you're flying for the next 1000 hours! Do the engine first, and the paint, interior and radios later. Sure it's a bit embarrassing to be seen it for the first while, but who cares, you can fly under your terms! I know many a happy owner who took this route - including me!

Once you get closer, start a thread with more specific questions, and you should see the wisdom flood in...

If you can truly afford the cost, and you're going to fly once a week or more, ownership is the way to go.

Look forward to the new freedom...

Cheers, Pilot DAR

This is a good point - with the CT2K having such low fuel consumption, a solo range of around 1000 miles, and being able to cruise at over 130mph! The question is, if a PPL (A) owns a CT2K, presumably, all hours built up flying it won't "count"? Does the PPL(A) holder have to hire a plane for minimum 12 hours every other year to keep his licence?

Wise words from pilot-DAR, I reckon. I would add that if buying anything worth real money (5 figures or more) I would also change the oil and send off a sample for analysis (assuming the owner hasn't changed it already a few hours beforehand). It's about £20 and so long as the oil sample is at least 20 hours old, it will speak a lot about the engine condition.

Engine borescope too, without question.

I bought my own 5 years ago and while it has been an absolute huge hassle, pushing rocks up mountains on so many fronts, warranty issues, dealer "customer service" issues, you name it, I have not regretted it for a moment. You get a plane you want, maintained to your standard, with exclusive access, and you know nobody else has bent it and kept quiet.

Ownership is not a dirt cheap option, but then flying is not a dirt cheap hobby.

I bought my first aircraft 5 years ago a 152 and flew a thusand hours in it. I had a few teething problems at the start with failed battery and giro instruments. It had flown very little having had one owner for the previous 5 years who did about 150hrs total. The engine still went to life and extension and I replaced it with a new engine in due course. The flexability of having my own IMC equipped was stunning. I embarked on the IR and decided I wanted and IFR tourer and bought a 172 XP that I then spent money on putting in HSI, AP, Garmin etc and I now I have a fully equipped IFR tourer that will carry 4 people, fuel and bags for 700nm.
Again the sheer flexability of having a plain next to home that is a going places machine is outstanding. The 172 had the same problems, the previous owner who still retains an interest in the plane had owned it for several years and his usage had dropped of to only a few hours a year. It took quite a bit of work to bring it back up to its former glory, the first move bringing it indoors. Surface corrosion treated and drying out of the avionics took some time and then I started on the refit. Now I have a first class Airways tourer with all the bells and whistles. I flew it 400hrs last year and the regular use ensure it runs sweet as a nut. The running costs are now £18 for a 50hr and £1200 for an annual. The aircraft burns 28lph in the airways and cruises at 130kts where I spend most of my time.
My biggest concern of moving from a 2 seater to a 4 seater was a massive uplift in costs. In fact the 172 costs just the same as the 152 in maintanance, a fraction more in fuel and about £500 more on insurance.
I am not into "cheap" flying I am into practical flying but I ams till cost aware, I don't like throwing money away!
The plastic hotships do indeed have very impressive figures but they are very restrictive in what you can do with them. OK its great that you can 1000nm at 130kts but when you get there all you can wear is your short and vests as to carry that much fuel you had to leave the clothes and toothbrush behind!!!
And finally, I agree with all the comments here about getting an inspection done. Make sure it is done by someone you trust and they give it a total going over. You will still get bitten by things but it is better risk mitigation.

I am looking to buy a share in an aircraft, so I imagine the warning about getting a pre-purchase inspection would apply to that though.

Where and how would I find somebody that would carry out a pre-purchase inspection for me, and how would I know if he ort she is qualified to do so? My home airfield is Barton, and I'm looking for somebody to carry out an inspection for me in the coming week.

T.

Interesting question Tiggermoth. I'm not sure about finding an engineer, although I think any sound maintenance organisation could help.

Would you always go for an inspection on joining a group? If you were thinking about buying into say an old 150 with comprehensive maintenance records, a recent bare metal respray and a group that has clearly taken every step to care for the aircraft? Would an inspection be economically viable if the share is less than say £2,000?

All views welcome.

HH

HH

For the very commonest aircraft, e.g. C152, C172, Cherokee/Warrior/Archer, just about any maintenance organisation will know these aircraft inside-out and will be able to do a good pre-purchase inspection. But for anything more unusual and I still mean really common stuff like Arrows, 172RG/177RG, Beechcraft, Jodels, Grummans, etc., it is worth seeking out an engineer who knows the type well, as the sort of expensive problem that might ruin the experience is likely to be well hidden.

I guess you could you ask how many annuals they have carried out in the last 12 months on that particular model. You could also ask to see their pre-sales inspection checklistl - many maintenance organsisations have a generic pre-sales inspection checklist. And I guess you can ask them what they will specifically look if you hire them to check a particular model.

Quote "Would an inspection be economically viable if the share is less than say £2,000?" You are looking at this the wrong way around. The inspection will be "economically viable" if it saves you spending the cost of the inspection on fixing some otherwise unseen fault. (Of course the cost of fixing the fault would be shared, this being one major advantage of sharing!)

In some cases, the cheaper the share, the more important it is to have an inspection - the share might be very 'cheap' for a reason, e.g. the other shareholders know or suspect that a big bill is on the way.

tp

Yes. (or renew by examination to be pedantic) But there are several "group A" types which are better, faster, far bigger payload, and equally as frugal as the CT2K for instance the Pioneer 300, MCR 01, Sport Cruiser etc. In addition to the savings on fuel, there are huge savings to be had on maintenance. Before Bosey/IO540 jumps in, the downside to any of these is lack of IMC/Night on a Permit aircraft, but you could always rent a spamcan for such activities if you were so inclined.

Did no one notice that the original post came from Australia?
After a few years of thorough responsible study, CASA, the authority there, allowed kit planes full IFR/night flying, provided they met specified, reasonable criteria, which if I remember correctly, included certified engine, prop, instruments, and a professional survey of the electrical system.

O that CASA could take over our CAA!
Also allowed by several other countries, including US, Canada, Sweden.
No such country has had reason to review its decision.

On Bose's comment on plastic hot ships, remember these cover a huge range of capabilities. My little one will carry two 14st people, 50lbs baggage, 6 hours fuel, all within approved W&B. And gets to Barcelona non stop from here in less than 4 hours, loads of fuel reserve.

Back to the CAA, and the CT2K question. The a/c has been replaced by the CTSW, which was designed, and now certified, for the 600kg US sports utility category. Exactly the same aircraft is limited to 450kg microlight category by the CAA, and therefore suffers as Bose says.

MikeJ

Before Bosey/IO540 jumps in, the downside to any of these is lack of IMC/Night on a Permit aircraft, but you could always rent a spamcan for such activities if you were so inclined.

There is no real argument here - it comes down to what mission capability you want.

If you are happy to stick to local flights in nice weather then VFR is OK. (But you better not be an owner because you are likely to soon get fed up with going nowhere). You can "go places" VFR but only if you are retired and have loads of time :)

If you are yourself instrument competent (not necessarily instrument legal) and you have a suitably IFR equipped plane, then you can fly "VFR" all over Europe, in cloud as necessary, and so long as you make sure the arrival is always obviously VFR, and there are no incidents, then you will always get away with it. Unfortunately very few pilots with no IFR background will be able to pull this stunt off consistently because it needs IFR planning and IFR weather understanding...

If you need the capability to fly IFR, landing with an instrument approach, then you have to do it legally, and unfortunately one needs a CofA plane for that (in the UK). It's a revenue maintenance measure by the CAA, no more; if they allowed IFR in Permit types or if they allowed common spamcans to go on Permit then a chunk of CAA income stream would vanish. That's why EASA is being slagged off everywhere right now for its latest pan-European proposals. They are too much "fresh air".

BTW I don't think you can just "rent a spamcan" for the occassional IFR flight. For a start, you won't be IFR current, and you won't be current on the type (very important for IFR). If you rent a C172/PA28 once a year for some rare flight in IMC, you are going to get yourself killed. But you also cannot generally rent a spamcan that is any good for real IFR, due to poor condition or poor equipment (there are exceptions). And renting is not feasible if you want to go away for days or more, as is typically the case if doing a longer flight out of the UK; part- or whole ownership is the only way to do that.

Dont agree IO. Despite working in a very demanding full time job, I got in over 100 hours serious X country VFR-only in my Pioneer 300 in 2006. Those XC's included 3 airfields in Ireland, 11 in France, 5 in Spain, 4 in Morocco, 2 in the Channel Isles, and 23 in the UK.

I don't doubt you, Mariner9, but you are quite exceptional in a number of ways.

Of course I am assuming you never entered IMC on all those trips ;)