Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Sorry? This has got what exactly to do with my posts?

If you're going to address it to someone - do it to the right person for chrissake!

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Sorry Chilli.

I have made an amendment.

Regards,

DFC

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

DFC

As has already been suggested, it is hard to work out how much of what you write is total fiction and how much might just be good inside knowledge.

Take your example of 3 flights A-B B-C C-A and your suggestion that these are addressed differently. Let's say I do a taxi-around ONLY at B (what would be the point??), and a 5 hour park at C? At what ground time threshold is it decided that these are "connected" flights?

My own experience also suggests this is bull, because I have done consecutive flights, with stops as short as two hours or as long as days, with each flight spanning several countries (say 800nm), and every FIS along the way knew all about me in advance.

Whatever Austrocontrol are doing works fine in practice. I am just curious how the departure airfield determines that the *VFR* FP that has just arrived over the AFTN has not been addressed to anybody else and that this needs to be done.

I have just remembered that Austrocontrol told me, on an earlier occassion, that they address a VFR FP to each country's FIS service but for this to work I must specify at least one waypoint within each of these. Now, THAT makes sense! I suspect their earlier-reported reply is bull.

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

They will know because they have been trained to handle flight plans and know the rules.

DOC 4444:

Except when other arrangements have been
made for submission of repetitive flight plans, a flight plan
submitted prior to departure should be submitted to the air
traffic services reporting office at the departure aerodrome. If
no such unit exists at the departure aerodrome, the flight plan
should be submitted to the unit serving or designated to serve
the departure aerodrome.

If an airfield receives a flight plan for a flight departing from that airfield then they know that they as the departure aerodrome are responsible for ensuring that the flight plan is distributed properly.

How the ARO gets the plan - by hand, by telephone, by fax, by email, by AFTN does not matter.

To save you the bother of reading the relevant documents here are the full details of the requirements;

[I]11.4.2.2.2.3 In the case of a flight through intermediate
stops, where flight plans for each stage of the flight are filed
at the first departure aerodrome, the following procedure shall
be applied:
a) the air traffic services reporting office at the first
departure aerodrome shall:
1) transmit an FPL message for the first stage of
flight in accordance with 11.4.2.2.2.2;
2) transmit a separate FPL message for each
subsequent stage of flight, addressed to the air
traffic services reporting office at the appropriate
subsequent departure aerodrome;
b) the air traffic services reporting office at each
subsequent departure aerodrome shall take action on
receipt of the FPL message as if the flight plan has
been filed locally.

Regards,

DFC

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

DFC,

At the risk of seeming to be picking on you - and I'm really not, I promise, I'm not sufficiently interested - are you willing to answer the question you've been asked several times within this thread, and reveal your credentials ?

Regards,

FF :ok:

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

FullyFlapped,

If you have something to add to the dabate please do so. Otherwise spend the time taking your own advice and put something in your own profile!

Professionals who have been arround for a long time know many of the rules because most of the rules were created during their career. Many professionals prefer to simply debate the issues on an equal basis with everyone else and avoid the situation where people with relatively little experience feel inhibited or feel that they can not shout bo:mad:ox when someone says something because of the experience gradient.

This forum is all about debate. I don't feel the need to beat my chest and say what a vastly experienced person I am just to try and get a point across. Similarly, when you or others disagree with something I say then feel free to be adults and say so.

Regards,

DFC

PS Half of the profiles here are fiction anyway so what difference would it make on an anonymous forum?

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

DFC

I think that the question arises (and has arisen before) because you so frequently quote ICAO references - the way things should work in a perfect world, rather than the way in which things actually work in the real world. It would be possible to conclude that your undoubted knowledge is theoretical rather than practical.

You could, I suppose, be a sad young man stuck behind a computer with a large number of ICAO Annexes in PDF form... :D

Happy New Year to you in any event.

2D

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

DFC

As I asked the original question on here (although you have been asked before on other threads) I'll ask it again. Some of the stuff you publish is quite accurate, some is utter tosh (or shall we say, theoretical). The trouble is, people may be acting on the things you say. I am not asking you to update your profile, just say on here what your experience is of UK ATC. You may be a professional who has been around for some time, but it is difficult to debate the issues on an equal basis (your words) if we don't know what that basis is.

So, come on.

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

2Donkeys,

I would have to be a very rich sad old man in that case. Have you ever seen how much those things cost! :D

----

vintage ATCO,

The answer is to debate the issue not the person! Feel free to say bull%hit when you want.

This is an anonymous forum. I could have simply replied to the requests that I have xx,xxx hours flying this and that and worked here there and everywhere and have done this and that in ATC since before the CAA even existed and have so much experience that I must be further past retiring age than I am. Would you believe it?

I would not even if you posted it because unless I know you personally, it could well rubbish.

Everything posted on this forum as with any other comes with a big health warning. It is important that everyone remembers that. I would not operate on advice from anyone here including you (don't take offence) without checking it out personally first.

Having said that I don't think that anyone intentionally posts false information.

The reason why I always back up my point with quotes from the official documents where possible is so that others can verify what I have said or go to the same or other official sources and show that I am wrong.

Please feel free to check the AIP and DOC 4444 to see if flight plans are handled in a way different to that I described.

There ends my replies to personal attacks. Back to the issue being debated.

Regards,

DFC

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

DFC

The way you describe the handling of FPLs is spot on. ;)

But you need to understand sometimes there can be a difference to the theoretical, what-the-book-says, often ICAO, answer and what happens in real life and arguing the former to the nth degree whilst the rest of us are doing the latter doesn't help.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Until the next time . . . . . ;) :D

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Vintage ATCO,

I agree.

My position has always been and continues to be that things should be done as per the AIP / ICAO / ANO or whatever the book says as appropriate.

If the practical situation requires practices different from those prescribed or simply that the normal situation is not oin keeping with the written rules then the book needs to be changed (or it could be argued that the practices are illegal/unsafe/ leave the organisation open to litigation).

We all have our own personal ways or operating practices that suit certain situations but it would be unwise to encourage others to follow such practices for legal reasons. As a non-aviation example - I at times drive at 90mph on the motorway. I would at no time state that it is safe to drive in excess of the prescribed speed limit or encourage anyone else to do so. Get the idea?

As a good aviation example, I have argued for years that PJE NOTAMS should not be classified as "M" (Miscelaneous) because they are not included in the standard ICAO briefing bulletin. I continue to hold the view that persons falling at 200mph vertically through the level at which my aircraft is operating in the open FIR is far from a miscelaneous situation. That is an ICAO failing but one where local agencies stick exactly to what the book says despite the safety implications.

One can only try. :D

Regards,

DFC

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Despite all of what you say, DFC, there is still no way to tell whether you speak from experience or from reading a lot of documents. There is no evidence that you actually do anything outside the house.

Incidentally, ICAO documents can be found here: http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Excellent find IO540, been looking for those docs on line for ages. I think DFC works for a regulator, I don't think he flies anything with a reciprocating engine.

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

There's more than a few comments directed at the Heathrow FBU and its staff on this thread, So, a few questions from one of them..

for you all...

What do you think about the FPL filing service (VFR or IFR) you receive from Heathrow Flight Briefing Unit? Good, bad, indifferent - could be better? If so, how? Have you ever had issue with us over the filing of your IFR flight plans?

and one for DFC..

just where DO you get your info from about Heathrow FBU ? I love the remarks about 1 address for VFR UK-Italy (:rolleyes: really? - how DO you know that?!!), and the 'simply file the return FPL to WSSS' comment - priceless! :p You make it all sound so.. so... simple!

If only, matey, if only........:hmm:

and one for BA Ops/Flight Planning..

can we organise a liason visit, so that we can see how DFC's 'professionals' do it? ;)

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

White Hart,

Italy was probably a bad example because you have to also enter the zones transited. How about Czech Republic using the collective EGZYVFRL? You probably don't get many of those but since you know the system, can you tell us the addresses included in the EGZYVFRL collective?

If I give you a flight plan from Singapore to Heathrow, who do you address it to?

As for the FBU. Always found them helpful and never had any serious problems with flight plans filed with them.

Regards,

DFC

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Very good, DFC. EGZYVFRL - EBBUZFZX EGTTYTYR EGTTZFZX EHAAZFZX EHMCZFZX ETJCYVYX LFEEZFZX LFFFZFZX LFQQZFZX LKAAZFZX - but as I have told you before, there is no requirement to send FPLs to en-route aerodromes (aka zones) unless there is a specific requirement in the AIP. Theoretical knowledge again, or an assumption?

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

White Hart

My understanding, which may not be current, is that the Heathrow flight plan filing facility doesn't guarantee to file a flight plan (for example, one sent to them by fax) for a flight wholly outside the UK.

They do it out of courtesy but they are not obliged to.

In this respect Heathrow is the same as all of the recently appearing websites that offer flight plan filing - except homebriefing.com who have confirmed to me that they will do a flight plan for anywhere. They charge a bit, but it's peanuts on the scale of flying costs.

If Heathrow set up a similar unrestricted website for GA flight plan filing, for say 20 quid a year, they would do very well. And probably with the bonus that a wholly-UK IFR flight plan OCAS would be handled appropriately for "UK IFR rules" i.e. not sent to CFMU.

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

DFC,

and
Well, firstly, by asking you to reveal whether you actually have any experience of the realities of the subjects upon which you choose to pontificate, I am contributing to the debate. As for being "adult", well, "adults" shouldn't feel the need to try and score cheap points like that !

There are contributors to this thread who very obviously do have real, actual experience of the subject matter, and who equally obviously disagree with your viewpoint. You present your opinions as being authoritive and - chest-beating or no - even your "handle" seeks to present your background as vastly experienced.

You could have a DFC, 30,000 hours and be a blood relative to the Wright brothers for all I care. All I wish to know is if you have any actual experience of the subject matter, and that is all I asked you for.

As to my profile, I am a PPL who uses these forums to glean advice and information from those who know more and have more experience. I am also a highly qualified and very experienced professional in my own field - which is not aviation. And in my career, I have met countless w*nkers who can "talk the talk", but whose experience comes directly from the manuals. These people can be dangerous.

Finally, I refer you to this :

That's exactly what I was seeking to do ...

FF :ok:

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

IO540

Quote "My understanding, which may not be current, is that the Heathrow flight plan filing facility doesn't guarantee to file a flight plan (for example, one sent to them by fax) for a flight wholly outside the UK.
They do it out of courtesy but they are not obliged to."

Virtually all of our received GA FPLs are sent to us by fax, or are dictated to us over the phone. Our local instruction does not specify within the written text whether we are 'obliged' to file FPLs or not. What we are all taught from Day 1 is - "if you receive a flight plan - you file it!" I've been at LL FBU for 16 years, and I cannot recall seeing a received FPL being returned to the originator because we weren't 'obliged' to file it, or because we couldn't 'guarantee' to file it, except maybe in isolated cases of AFTN system failure. I could be wrong - I'm just saying I've never seen it personally.

FPLs are only referred back to the originator if further input or clarification is required, or if we are ourselves responding to subsequent enquiries/replies after filing. Every received FPL gets filed - we check/prepare it into AFTN format, address it in accordance with our laid-down procedures (LL Mats pt2 gives the details) - and we send it off to what we identify as the appropriate recipients. So, if you send me a VFR FPL for Italy to Denmark, I will forward it to the FBU at the departure airfield/Parent ATSU for correct addressing and onward transmission - that is what the local instruction tells me to do. As an example, I can recall seeing a series of FPLs connected with an Antartic survey being faxed to us for filing over an extended period - which we did. You can't get much further away from UK airspace than that!

BTW, I am not familiar with homebriefing.com's operation, but what may restrict us from operating a similar service to them is our limited manpower, and with that, the specific requirement to prioritise our workload. Heathrow work always comes first, airfields within our Parental remit come next, then everybody else. (and of course, we now have the Met/SAMOS to deal with too - but we won't go into that!)

If we were to be inundated with GA FPLs for VFR or IFR flights completely outside of UK Airspace, they would have to take their place in the 'priority' queue, and as such, they may be subject to delay in processing. This could be where your use of the term 'guarantee' may come into play. It's not that we won't do the filing, whether that involved full addressing or just forwarding to another ATSU or FBU - it's a simple (there's that DFC term again!:rolleyes: ) fact that we may just not have sufficient time or manpower to complete the task in time for the proposed flight, due to prioritisation of our workload.

I think it would be safe to say that not a single member of the Heathrow FBU staff would deliberately turn away a request to file a FPL without a very, very good reason - I'm sure we'd get a severe a*se kicking if we did!

Hope that explains things a bit.

VintageAtco - a nice response there! So, can you help me with the answer to the WSSS/EGLL question please? I'm not very qualified to do this - I've only been in the job for 16 years! :{

DFC

I have no desire or need to play "20 questions" with you. People reading this thread, and looking at my profile and posts on various forums will hopefully have been satisfied that I am what I state I am - a Heathrow Tower/Flight Briefing Unit ATSA2. My "credentials" should hopefully speak for themselves.

How about you......?

And where's my liason visit to BA Ops??:*

Re: Treatment of IFR flight plans (UK, outside Class A)
 

Vintage ATCO,

Thanks for that. The reason why I made the comment about addressing zones transited is because the Italy and as another example Ireland examples require all zones transited to be addressed as well as the collective etc. It is in the AIP ENR section - Addressing Flight Plans.

------

White Hart,

You answered the WSSS question in your reply to IO540. Thanks.

-------

Fully Flapped,

All I wish to know is if you have any actual experience of the subject matter, and that is all I asked you for.

Answer - Yes.

Do not follow anything I say on here regardless. You must not use "but DFC said this or that" as a reason for doing anything. End of disclaimer! :)

--------

IO540,

Why do you have a problem with IFPS handling your IFR flight OCAS in the UK? As I said previously, the system wil not present you with any problems provided that the flight plan is correctly compiled. I can confirm that from experience. Yes in the past (5+ years ago), there were some issues and I can remember us having problems with flights that were OCAS, crossers or leavers where the IFPS/CFMU were insisting on a route within the SRS. Those problems have been sorted thanks to operators like me who put some effort into getting the system to work for flights like the one you propose. White Hart correctly states that Heathrow FBU will call you when there is a problem with your flight plan or you can simply use the flight plan checker provided by IFPS for that very reason. Home Briefing will either text you or send you an email. If you study the IFPS/CFMU user's guide you will see that there is atleast 1 clever way of ensuring that your plan will not even be checked by the system.

When you get your IR and start flying outside the UK, you will come to love the flight plan checker because you can use it to confirm that your chosen airways route will work. Essential unless you want to spend hours reading the RAD / SRS / flow briefings!

------------

Overall from a pilot / operator's point of view, many think that what they do day to day wrt flight plans is correct because they do not have any problems and everything seems to work. As an example that White Hart and Vintage ATCO will be aware of is flight plans filed by foreign operators not keeping to the UK SRS. When Flight Plans at LATCC (as it was) or the Heathrow or Manchester FBUs receive flight plans from as an example US operators with weird routes through the UK, they put them into the HCS with the correct UK route and a note. Now to that operator, the flight plan worked perfectly because unless they ask why the route is different -don't ATC always vector the flight all over the place ;) - they never know that they are doing something wrong.

It isn only when one looks closer at the system for reasons of training or getting round problems that one can find out what one did for years was actually not correct! - Thanks to you White Hart for correcting our plans for 16 years! :D

Regards,

DFC