Nimbus 265

I must respect your capabilities, but PPL training tells us the earhole and backside cannot be depended upon when the eyes are out of the loop. Recall the party trick of standing on one leg with eyes closed and falling over after a minute, and the Instructor telling us to shut eyes just before recoveries from u/p's. I've tried that CAA revolving chair and that did for me as well.

If these misleading sensations can be ovecome by being more intimately in tune with the machine, maybe power pilots should go up high, chop the power and practice some gliding to get used to those subtle sounds and sensations.

Windy1, thats exactly the reason why it's been included in the ETPS course. Ever tried it?

Shortstripper,

Please make no mistake, my only agenda here is to live long enough to collect my pension.

I have absolutely no objection to gliders in clouds, as long as I can avoid flying through the same cloud at the same height!

I too would reconsider my "collision avoidance plan", such as in my Coventry example, if I knew for certain there were gliders ahead and some of them might be in cloud. A radio call from just one of "the swarm" to ATC would be enough to alert everyone. So PLEASE do it!

BTW, I'm an ex glider pilot, too - that's where I began flying. Went solo at RAF Swanton Morley thirty four years ago.

All national, and regional competitions in the UK, as well as some inter-club league competitions are NOTAM'd.

Any decent task setter worth their salt generally sets tasks away from areas of potential heavy traffic, and routes are normally set with good horizontal seperation from controlled airspace. Airspace infringements are another topic altogether!

It's very unlikely that in any field of say 40 glider that any more than the odd one or two, will take or risk a cloud climb, and thats only if the conditions are right. As I have said in earlier posts, it really is the exception - rather than the norm.

A system called FLARM has been introduced on the continent, which is aimed at providing a collision avoidance system for light GA and gliders.

It uses integrated I-band tranceivers and GPS to provide visual and audio feedback on aircraft on collision courses (360 degrees). Unfortunately, as I understand it, the frequencies used for FLARM, are allocated for other purposes in the UK. I for one would fully support such a scheme in the UK, given the relatively low cost.http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html

Philip Wills competed in the 1956 world gliding championships, and tells of being one of 25 gliders in the same cu-nim. :D

F3G's

I too am an ex-glider pilot and once the kids are grown will be again. I've just seen so many of these threads on various forums and there are always some that come across in the way I described. To be fair, this thread is developing a bit more sensibily than most, so forgive me for being too cynical. After all that is what I asked (tounge in cheek) "am I being too cynical?"

SS

This thread is a real eye-opener. I did not know that it was legal for gliders to fly into cloud. As a PPL who flies in IMC often I have always assumed like englishal that provided I was clear of the cloudbase there was no risk of encountering a glider in cloud. I am not clear how to respond to this new information!

Presumably it doesn't really matter whether you are a glider pilot or powered pilot, any venture into cloud risks collision with another aircraft. The difference for gliders is that they will not have a radar service. Does this mean that there is a greater risk of gliders colliding with one another?

I am trying to work out how I would manage flying in IMC differently/better with this knowledge. Do the instructors on this thread have any suggestions?

Jayemm,

There is no easy answer. That's why the glider pilots need to consider speaking on an ATC frequency to advertise their presence. Otherwise it's a lottery, albeit one where you don't want your number to come up! :\

Anyone who flies in CBs for fun needs certifying, IMHO :E

I'm (cautiously) practising cloud flying in my glider.

ShyTorque suggests that I call an ATC frequency, and I'd be happy to do so - but which one? And how often?

So far as I know, all the glider collisions in cloud have been with other gliders, and they appear to have been in competitions prior to the mid-late 1970s when cloud flying seems to have been much more popular - this is (I think) because the lower-performing wooden gliders benefitted much more from cloud climbs than modern glass machines.

My biggest risk (and the biggest risk I create) seems to be from/to other gliders, so I need to monitor and call on 130.4, which is the BGA-allocated cloud flying frequency.

I could call ATC when about to enter cloud, but as I'll only be cloud climbing in class G airspace I'd like to know who to call. Near my home club the obvious candidate would be Lakenheath, but would this lead to powered a/c being alerted if in the area?

In other words, if you're flying IMC in class G airspace, who would be advising you about my activities?

[And, BTW, I don't think any (sane) glider pilot flies in CBs these days. Since we found out about wave, seriously high (say 10,000 ft plus) flying is done that way).

Prof, best of luck if you want to call ATC first. Today I was listening out to Essex Radar for a while and heard the following:

A glider (from Wethersfield, I believe): Essex, Glider XXX
ATC: Glider XXX, stand by:

[Time passed. ATC talked to various airliners or whatever for several minutes]

Glider: Essex, Glider XXX standing by;
ATC: Glider XXX, I'll get back to you;

[Time passed. ATC talked to various airliners or whatever for several more minutes]

ATC: Glider XXX, pass your message;
Glider: [Unintelligible];

ATC: Glider XXX, I received only carrier wave, say again;
Glider: [Unintelligible];

ATC: Glider XXX, I received only carrier wave, stay out of controlled airspace.

I changed to 130.4 soon after, so I heard no more - I was going cloud flying between Stansted and Bury St. Edmunds, to get high enough to cross to Tibenham without descending into the Mildenhall/Lakenheath complex or needing to thermal near the extended centreline of any of their runways.

You asked which ATC to talk to. You could consider Essex, Lakenheath, or I suppose London Info. None will know all the others' traffic, I expect, none will know of other gliders, and if you try Essex they will almost certainly be too busy. Lakenheath was fairly busy today too (I listened out to them for a while when near their area). If you do try ATC, make sure you have a good radio and well-charged battery - I can't imagine it improves our credibility with them if we can't sustain transmissions like the chap today.

If you do cloud fly,. for goodness sake use 130.4 while doing it - as I have pointed out before, the biggest risk to a glider is another glider - and it might be me in that area!

I can't convince the power pilots on here (and I'm not going to try any more) that talking to ATC is impractical and anyway addresses the least of our risks. If you monitor Essex or Lakenheath for a bit, however, you will understand why I wrote earlier that if all gliders in East Anglia did so, they would be swamped.

By the way, the only powered aircraft I saw were in VMC, well below cloud. The closest was a few hundred metres away, at my height - about 1500 feet, just south of Ridgewell, and it looked like he had just flown over Ridgewell - where we were winch launching, and displaying the correct signal for what its worth. And they think we take risks!

Regards - Chris N.
============================

Gliding in Cloud in the 50s.

Extract from memoirs.

One Saturday afternoon at Farnborough I found myself sitting in the right seat of the ETPS Sedburg glider with Bill Bedford, the Harrier test pilot, in the left. Bill was an enthusiastic glider pilot and at the time held several British gliding records for height and distance. We released from an aero tow somewhere near Guildford under a growing cumulus cloud and were soon rapidly gaining height in the cloud. The air temperature kept reducing with increasing altitude and we began to wonder how much colder we could become before leaving the cloud.

The glider had a battery driven artificial horizon and direction indicator and Bill had been doing a good job with these instruments. But without us realising it initially, the battery was going flat and the AH started to lean over. Bill followed the AH until I noticed that the turn indicator was not making sense. Soon after we entered a steep spiral dive and speed rapidly increased. I watched in horror as the airspeed went on up over the red line speed of 92 Kts. Markings around the dial of the ASI were from 20 kts to 110 kts with a gap around the bottom 30 degrees of the dial. I watched the needle go around through the gap and continue until it was showing 25 Kts the second time around.

The airflow noise was very high and I was using both hands pulling on the air-brake lever with the feeling that if I pulled any harder I would break something. We hurtled out through the cloud base still well nose down and directly over the city of Guildford. Bill slowly brought the nose up and as the speed thankfully reduced we zoomed up to cloud base again. By now the AH was unusable and there was no way we were going to re-enter the cloud.

We recognised that we were now too low to glide upwind to Farnborough so Bill elected to try to glide downwind to the airfield at Dunsfold just visible in the distance. We hoped to be able to pick up some rising air on the way. Our gliding angle was obviously too high for us to reach Dunsfold directly so we headed off a little towards another cumulus hoping for some lift beneath it. But we were disappointed and realised that a forced landing was now most probable.

It was the time of the year when all of the wheat fields in the area were being harvested and there were bales of straw all over. We spotted a green field beyond a small forest and decided that this was to be our place to land. Having committed ourselves to this green field, there was then nowhere else to go. Alas we soon began to see that it was a wheat-field ready for harvesting.

I tightened my harness as much as possible expecting a sudden stop and that was just as well. Bill levelled off the glider just above the wheat and it brushed us loudly underneath. Eventually stalling we sank down into the wheat until our sight line was below the wheat. Suddenly the wings sank into the wheat and we stopped immediately with very rapid deceleration. The last foot or two was a vertical drop on to the ground with a teeth jarring crunch.

Suddenly all was silence except that in the distance we could hear a few people yelling to each other. We had disappeared from anyone's view and local observers all believed from the noise generated by our arrestment that we had severely crashed.

Bill and I looked at each other in relief and having assured ourselves that we were alright we climbed out to find that we were just tall enough to see over the top of the wheat. We carefully made our way along the rows of wheat in the general direction of a farm house not far away with Bill explaining that it would be normal for the farmer to extract compensation for that portion of his crop knocked down.

Soon we were being treated to a cup of tea in the farmhouse whilst curious locals turned up from all directions. Someone had reported a crash to police and soon several police cars approached. Two policeman turned up on bicycles. One came on a horse. Then came an ambulance and Bill was able to talk the ambulance crew into giving him a few swigs of medicinal brandy. The policemen were eager to help so we used them to help manhandle the wings off the glider and move them and the fuselage into the farmer's barn ready for retrieval next day.

All that remained was the completion of an incident report and a structural inspection of the glider for overstress. It was pronounced airworthy. Two weeks later it was used to give the Duke of Edinborough his first flight in a glider.

--------------------------------
Then there was the time when I was enjoying the challenges of glider flying in the ETPS Olympia over Farnborough seeing lots of green ball as I climbed in a growing Cu. Niggling buffet at the normal soaring speed gradually increased in intensity and demanded my attention. A quick glance away from the instruments was enough to see extensive ice accretion along a wing leading edge and around the nose. I could not believe that the extent of icing had not reduced the gliding capabilities of the Olympia to that of a brick.

Straightening up soon had me out of the side of the cloud, now with maximum red ball, plunging down to below freezing level. Big chunks of ice started to break away creating another hazzard and I was much relieved that none of the chunks hit the tail. It occurred to me that the chunks of ice were probably big enough to reach the ground so I endeavoured to avoid overflying built up areas for a while as I made my way back to Farnborough.

----------------------------------------
Then again in the Olympia in cloud over Farnborough I was startled to hear 4 engines with noisy props approaching. I wanted out of that cloud in a hurry but not soon enough before the roar of the close pass of an aircraft reached a crescendo and then slowly died away at about the same rate as the lowering of my racing heart pulse rate. I now wonder why I didn't roll over and pull through away from the approaching menace.

I am now cured of flying gliders in cloud!

I have never flown a glider so would not comment on gliding but I have to say it was totally unknown to me that i may well meet a glider in IMC in the UK. I fly a fair amount of time in class G in IMC and always plan a route to get a LARS service for safety reasons. Now that I may encounter a glider in cloud (very rare I understand) which probably is not painting on radar, how do i plan my routes to be safets possible?

ChrisN

If you persist in your current approach and attitude, I would not be surprised to find an article on the lines of the following in one of the tabloids somtime in the future.......

"Reckless Glider Pilots Endanger Airliners

By A. Reptile, Staff Writer

Passengers travelling on airliners expect the highest possible levels of safety and may assume that they are travelling in an environment where risks are reduced to the minimum.

However, research by the Daily Bugle shows that there is a serious risk to airliners, caused by a reckless minority of glider pilots who deliberately fly in clouds without establishing radio communications with air traffic control.

Airlines are equipped with electronic devices that show air traffic controllers where they are and what height they are flying at. When aircraft are flying in cloud, the pilots rely on air traffic controllers to instruct them where to fly safely.

However, some glider pilots refuse to talk to air traffic control, because they say that the rules do not oblige them to do this. They also decline to carry the electronic devices that allow air traffic controllers to track them like airliners, because they are said to be too expensive. Also, glider pilots do not have to train for an instrument rating to fly in clouds, unlike airline pilots, which we find amazing.

This means that your airline flight could be endangered by a reckless glider pilot and the Daily Bugle has discovered that the law currently allows no action to be taken against them.

The Bugle is starting a petition to change this archaic law, which dates back to times when there was a lot less air traffic than today and we encourage you to complete the coupon below and send it to us.

We will make sure that this petition is delivered to the Prime Minister and we will not remain silent on this issue until he takes positive action to close this legal loophole and bringing gliding under the control of the CAA, just like airlines are."

The main danger is between GA light aircraft and gliders. Being an airline pilot and a glider pilot I would say that the possibility of conflict between an airliner and a glider is minimal. Airliners usually climb rapidly through the lower levels and their departure routings are well known to glider pilots. However the Coventry approach scenario mentioned earlier is more likely where a GA aircraft is climbed to avoid a 737 with the potential conflict of the GA aircraft with a glider.

The main point to come out of this thread is the need for educating power pilots that they could conflict with gliders in cloud. I have to say that when I am gliding it is apparent that power pilots don't keep a good enough look out in VMC, let alone the problems of look out in cloud! When you are close to cumulus clouds at lower altitudes keep a good look out, there will be gliders around!

Also I would not consider flying in CB's in a glider or an airliner! It's those fluffy white cotton wool clouds that glider pilots go for!

Final 3 Greens someone could write a much more scary story about commercial traffic encountering fast-jet [military] traffic, other commercial traffic or GA in uncontrolled airspace in the north-east if they wanted to...

Infact they did - you can find quite a few examples in the Airprox bulletins.

I didn't see many (2) glider -v- commercial ops reports in there though :hmm:

See HERE

This is from that report (I hope they don't mind me posting it)

The grid at Figure 4 shows which groups conflicted and how often.

The yellow column shows the pilot group (or their air traffic controllers) that filed Airprox while those in the green row represent the other party.

Positioning in either grouping does not imply being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – it is just how they met.

For example, ‘GA Helicopter’ pilots met ‘GA Private or Club’ pilots on five occasions, the latter group meeting each other 20 times.

The largest change on results from 2003 was experienced by pilots of scheduled passenger airliners who filed on 10 more occasions.

Whilst this is an increase over the preceding year, the 2004 total of 64 is 12 less than the 2002 figure, illustrating the variability of such data.

http://www.tdrs.co.uk/aviation/airprox2004.jpg

I see from your post, Final 3 Greens, that I'm not being over cynical after all! I assume rightly or wrongly that your post reflects what you think should happen?

I've flew my Swallow glider in cloud years ago, had no problems (even without training "there is a world of difference between gliders and powered aircraft"), and considered the risk was tiny then and now. I consider the risk of collision far higher in an overhead join on a busy day than ever it is between a glider and powered aircraft in cloud outside controlled airspace. But then I'm a realist, not an alarmist :hmm:

SS

I'm really baffled by the attitude of some people: It's no good shouting you need to contact ATC...blah blah blah.... on which frequency do you suggest? There is a dedicated cloud flying frequency... 130.4.. If people are so worried by the relatively low risk, then why don't YOU switch to 130.4 and ask if there is anyone at a location flying in cloud or just listen - you'll soon hear.

As I said in my earlier posts, those of us who do fly in clouds follow a set protocol, regardless of how infrequent we do it: Call on the enroute freq before entering; change to 130.4; State call sign, location(!), height (QNH) and entering cloud.... Then height info (QNH) every 500', announcing clear of cloud at (whatever) height then change to enroute!

I did a quick 150 km route yesterday, and the conditions were actually right for a 1500' cloud climb, in a single solitary isolated cu. Within a 25 nautical mile radius of the point I entered cloud I had the following possible ATC stations:

Middle Wallop
Thruxton
Boscombe Down (shut at weekends)
Popham
Farnborough
Lasham
Benson
Booker
White Waltham
Blackbush
Sandhill Farm
Abingdon
Upavon
Salisbury DAIS
Rivar Hill
oh and London Information

Apart from being able to identify where I actually was at the time by this list; what ATC would anyone like to suggest that I notify?

I also had some class A above me at FL65 (but didn't go anywhere near this high (obviously;))

While I was on 130.4 yesterday I heard at least 1 power pilot blind call 130.4, and state that he was enroute from somewhere to somewhere else stating he would be going IMC at Oxford at approx 4800 on the Cotswold QNH and ask if there was anyone in the vicinity climbing in cloud?.

I must admit that it's the first time I've heard it, but I don't tend to spend too long in cloud anyway!!

For me it was however a revelation.... there is a frequency to check if anyone is climbing in cloud...130.4

Unfortunately Nimbus many people here only hear or read what they want to. I thought I wrote a reply to Finals 3 Greens but it has been ignored. You are clearly an experienced glider pilot and have made some very useful contributions to this discussion. I have found that having experience in other areas of flying is very useful in my main job as an airline pilot. Too many pilots have too narrow a view and that can compromise their flying safety. For example the lack of knowledge of some power pilots of what glider pilots can do in or out of cloud.

Nimbus,

With regard to choice of which agency to call on the radio, don't forget that GA pilots have to make that very same choice on every flight in Class G!

(I'm not sure what you mean by "enroute frequency" in view of your question about which agency to call. It is possible that what I write below may be exactly what you do already, if so my apology for trying to teach you to suck eggs).

It sounds like in the particular circumstance you quoted, the best choice in Class G would probably be Farnborough Radar but without knowing your exact route I'm not certain. I'm sure you are aware that Benson can also offer a radar service, as do Brize Norton. Transitting GA routinely works those units as appropriate. All you would need to give is present position, altitude and route so it could be passed on to other traffic. I'm NOT suggesting you give up 130.4 altogether, btw.

Do emphasise that you would be going IMC because that is the whole point of the discussion, otherwise it's the usual rules of "See and avoid" in Class G.

GA pilots routing IFR / IMC near Farnborough are highly likely to be working them. ATC would treat you just like any other aircraft (hopefully you WILL appear on their radar) and they would advise other pilots working them of your presence. Obviously, it's your decision after calling them whether you stay on that frequency or change back to 130.4. If you become VMC and / or leave the area it would be great if you could call them back and say so. Safety improved for everyone, just a couple of quick calls.

Your profile says you have a PPL and fly IFR capable helicopters; there must be IMC rated / IR qualified pilots around your neck of the woods. Why not discuss this locally or ask for some local advice?

Thanks for at least discussing it here, some valuable inputs. :ok:

I was well aware that gliders fly in cloud - because ChrisN told me so many years ago. I discussed it (and many other related topics with him), and learned a lot from a highly experienced and concerned pilot.

Those who wish to impose restrictions on glider pilots are, in my view, missing the point. The risk of collision with gliders in cloud outside controlled airspace is very low - far lower than the risk of hitting another powered aircraft flying in the same IMC.

Commercial aircraft really shouldn't be there at all - they have all that dedicated controlled airspace that we need permission to enter. That risk should be zero.

What frightens me far more is watching power pilots blunder through gliding sites blissfully unaware of the chaos and distress they are causing. Surprisingly, I can't recall ever having read of a MOR or Airprox filed by a glider in those circumstances. Perhaps they are too forgiving of us power pilots?

ShyTorque wrote: "With regard to choice of which agency to call on the radio, don't forget that GA pilots have to make that very same choice on every flight in Class G!"

I think this inadvertently misses the point. The non-glider pilots are looking for some kind of service from whoever they call, so have some idea who might give them that service. This helps them make the choice.

If I call an agency, I'm looking for no service from them - I'm merely giving them information (glider entering cloud, position and height) so that they can improve their service to other aircraft.

This arose from someone (maybe SkyTorque) suggesting that a glider pilot should make such a call, and my request for information on who I should call.

If I call e.g. Lakenheath, because they're close to me, but another IMC pilot is speaking to Essex, I gather that my call will be useless to him/her because it won't be passed on. Or vice versa.

I'd be happy to make one, possibly two calls to ATC before entering cloud, but my priority has to be 130.4 because, as ChrisN points out, the main risk is other gliders. If there's no single point of contact where I can alert other GA, it seems rather pointless for me to call at all.

One thing which does come out of this thread is that any GA pilot who wants to be sure that there is no glider traffic in cloud should listen to 130.4 for a few minutes. Gliders in cloud call frequently as their height changes, so nothing heard means (or should mean) no gliders.

If anyone can suggest an effective way to alert other GA traffic to my cloud flying I'd be delighted to use it.

Keef,

"Those who wish to impose restrictions on glider pilots are, in my view, missing the point."

I've just re-read the entire thread from start to finish. Could you please point out where "restrictions" are mentioned? I couldn't find them.

[Edit: Keef, I've read your post again; you stated:
"Commercial aircraft really shouldn't be there at all - they have all that dedicated controlled airspace that we need permission to enter. That risk should be zero."

Sorry to say, that comment shows you do not understand the UK aviation regulations or how GA works. GA cannot use dedicated controlled airspace if it doesn't exist at the departure point and the destination, or in between. Would you like to have more regulated airspace that you would need permission to enter? I think not].

ProfChrisReed,

"If I call an agency, I'm looking for no service from them - I'm merely giving them information (glider entering cloud, position and height) so that they can improve their service to other aircraft."

Do you seriously NOT consider that using ATC to help avoid a mid air collision with YOUR aircraft an improvement in the service to yourself?

If not, and if this reflects the general view of UK glider pilots (I can't believe it does), it is probably a complete waste of time trying to put across any alternative viewpoint over what some of us consider a serious flight safety issue.

"If anyone can suggest an effective way to alert other GA traffic to my cloud flying I'd be delighted to use it."

Certainly. Buy a transponder with mode C. Then GA with TCAS can avoid you. We've been there before, no joy.

I refer to the veiled inferences in comments such as:

"We will make sure that this petition is delivered to the Prime Minister and we will not remain silent on this issue until he takes positive action to close this legal loophole and bringing gliding under the control of the CAA, just like airlines are."

"some gliding bod spiralling up in the cloud in a completely indiscriminate fashion"

There are more. If my point is missed, forget it. This is only a debating forum, after all.

Keef - I don't see the logic of your collision risk analysis. GA is separated procedurally by quadrantal levels, there is absolutely no procedural separation from a cloud flying glider. I for one will start to listen out/ask nicely on 130.4, at least it's better than zero protection!

Red Chilli - I don't see your point. I didn't provide any collision risk analysis - just stated that it's low. How many accidents have there been with gliders in cloud? Compare that with the primary causal factors for aircraft accidents.

Shy Torque -sorry, I don't follow your logic. Controlled airspace needs permission to enter (doesn't it?). Commercial aircraft are the primary beneficiaries of controlled airspace. They don't need to be in uncontrolled airspace in the busy areas for gliders and GA. So take them out of the analysis.

What exactly is it that I do not understand about the UK aviation regulations or how GA works? I think you have misread my posting.

Your PM mailbox is also full, so nobody can write to you off-list to attempt to defuse some of the issues that are best handled that way.

Guys, the whole issue is being blown totally out of proportion.

Cloud flying in gliders was common in the 50's & early 60's because:-

A lot of the pilots were WWII RAF trained and could even do spin recovery on instruments. Alternatively the pilots could teach themselves cloud flying because of the aircraft factors below (See Peter Scott's book "Eye of the Wind" if you don't believe it)

The old wooden gliders had totally speed limiting airbrakes - they won't go past VNE even in a vertical dive

Even without the brakes the old wooden gliders took a long time to accelerate to VNE because of the built in drag.

The amount of wind noise generated is a very clear indication to the pilot that something nasty is developing.

The old wooden gliders needed a lot of height to do decent distances.

Their performance didn't alter that much if they collected a bit of ice in the process.

Wave wasn't widely known about, Scotland was far away and height diplomas had to be done in clouds.

With glass gliders these days very little of the above applies.

Airbrakes are only speed limiting to about 45 degrees dive angle

They accelerate very quickly and are very quiet at all speeds

Performance goes to worms with dead insects stuck to the wings, never mind ice.

So while technically gliders can fly in cloud, only an extremely small number of pilots these day choose to do so, and normally very infrequently.

"Don't panic, Captain Mainwaring"

Astir 8,

What you say is very true, and perhaps I or someone else should have pointed that out earlier. I have been saying all along that the incidence of cloud flying by gliders is very very small in real terms and therefore, the main thrust of the discussion appears to be centered in the extreme minority of cases when glider pilots do go in cloud.


Risk, as any safety engineer will tell you, can be quantified by probability (likelyhood of occurance) X severity of outcome. There are levels of acceptable risk and there are levels of unacceptable risk which require mitigation in order to drive those risks to an acceptable level and ideally As Low As Reasonably Practicable (ALARP). Is one in a million acceptable? is one in a thousand acceptable? Or one in ten million accepatable? It would frighten many of you to know some of the levels of accepatble risk applied to aircraft, systems and procedures in use by civil and military manufacturers and authorities.


It would be an interesting study, rather than just a difference of opinion, which would perhaps provide the best focus for discussion on the perceived level of risk associated with the likelihood of a catastrophic event (GA/Glider collision) whilst flying in IMC - but that ain't going to happen in the short term. Therefore, what we have is a difference of opinion of perceptible risk.

I could sit and do the sums - but I'd then end up having to justify those figures and it would all get really messy, suffice to say that if the risk was 'unacceptable' to the CAA, then they would have introduced procedural mitigation years ago. Therefore, and as the statistics would seem to bear out (ie number of incidences over time) the level of risk is acceptable to the controlling authorities. (by the way level of acceptable risk of a catastrophic event can be as low as 1 in 100,000 (1x10^-5).


It would therefore appear that this thread centers around that fact that the perception of risk is different for power pilots and glider pilots:

My perception is that there is greater risk of colliding with another glider in cloud than that a powered aircraft, and the overall risk is incredible (so small as not to be an issue). By that it MY perception, It is based on the fact over the last 600 flights I have only taken 9 cloud climbs: I spend probably less that 5 minutes in cloud (climbing at say 400ft/minutes); My current (2005) average flight length is around 55 minutes, in which I have logged 79 flights this year to date.

So over the past 600 flights. 0.015% of those flights had a cloud climb and on those flights I spent less that 0.09% in cloud (and used the radio every time). Rounding up, then one in a thousand times I fly I come into the Cloud Flying risk zone. (thats a hell of a lot smaller than the risk of being hit by/collision by GA in VFR, of which the risk zone is 999:1000!!!!

Don't forget thats just the risk zone..... then you add the likelihood of collision, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that the figures are better than 1:10^-9, which is more than acceptable TO ME!

This is a naive but genuine question for non-glider pilots who fly IMC in class G:

Can you be sure that you are aware of other pilots doing the same? In other words, if another pilot is also flying IMC but speaking to a different ATC service, would you receive that information?

And as a supplementary, do all non-glider pilots flying IMC in class G inform ATC of their activities, or are there some who merely monitor one or more frequencies without transmitting?

ProfChrisReed asked:

"This is a naive but genuine question for non-glider pilots who fly IMC in class G:

Can you be sure that you are aware of other pilots doing the same? In other words, if another pilot is also flying IMC but speaking to a different ATC service, would you receive that information?

And as a supplementary, do all non-glider pilots flying IMC in class G inform ATC of their activities, or are there some who merely monitor one or more frequencies without transmitting?"

My responses, in order:

1.) Not necessarily BUT if he is operating IFR he should carry the legally mandated minimum equipment, which includes a transponder. If he requests a radar service from ATC he will be required to squawk a code for identification. We carry TCAS to help identify other aircraft, whether on the same frequency or not but transponding. Despite costing more than some gliders (!) it is by no means infallible. Aircraft not transponding don't appear on TCAS. The LARS system is there and pilots are strongly encouraged to use it but there are some gaps in coverage.

2.) Impossible to answer. Airmanship / survival instinct makes me obtain an appropriate ATC service where available, preferably a RIS.

Who is "we" in this context?

I would doubt the majority of IFR capable GA aircraft have TCAS. Of the people I know who regularly fly IFR/IMC in G airspace only one has TCAS in his current aircraft AFAIK...

Rustle I agree with you. My post was merely to illustrate what one of Her Majesý's Press' finest could do with the content of Chris Ns post and frankly, Mr Reptile and his colleagues could do it rather more efectively than me.

In this modern world of spin and perception, it is easy to make a story and a campaign out of very little and the fun police are all around us.

I think that collaborating is the way forward, since the airspace that we share is valuable to all of us, so lets Wrong actually, but I can understand why you would draw this inference from my post.

Flap 5

I have just read your post, have been travelling for a few days, so not ignored.

As I understand it, there is no requirement for aircraft below 5700kg MTOM to be fitted with TCAS: Surely at this weight that excludes most private light GA?http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/DAP_TA_C...n_ACASII_2.pdf



Exactly what percentage of GA aircraft are fitted with TCAS?, or is the use of the royal 'we' a little too regal? If TCAS costs soooo much, it would be cheaper to fit another transceiver on a fixed frequency of 130.4, and then you could permanently listen out :E

I am somewhat surprised that for the majority of posters here the term GA equates to light private aircraft. Do not assume GA is all single Cessnas/Pipers. The definition covers anything from a C150 to a 747 that is not Commercial Air Transport. I think many of us who fly GA just expect a level playing filed so that we all hope the skills for a certain type of flight are equally taught and tested. I cannot see the reasoning behind a glider pilot flying IMC without IMC or IR quite legally whereas the powered a/c pilot cannot. Not suggesting more regulation just would like to know the reasoning.

I think it all comes down to history. Gliding in this country was never formally licenced (not sure what the situation is now), whereas powered flght always has been (except in the very beginning of course). Powered flight gives you the ability to go where you want without relying on the lift available, whereas gliders need to use any lift available. Certainly in the pre and early post war days this meant thermals and cloud flight to use the thermal to its limit. Back then wave wasn't really understood and ridge soaring was quite obviously localised. Also private and even commercial transport tended not to fly in IMC so gliders were the only ones likely to be in cloud anyway. Once a precidence is set it is not easy to remove. This is especially true when there is no evidence of realised danger to take a priviledge away. I suppose the CAA decided that gliders could be excused a formal rating as there was no licence to attach it to, and as few accidents have occured, why change things?

Incidently, Cu nims had a slight problem back then, in that the lift often outpaced the gliders ability to dive, so the odd pilot quite literally got sucked up to his death!

SS

Still no licence required to fly a glider in the UK, unlike in the USA.

This is correct - to a point; while a license is not required in the UK, all gliding clubs in the UK are regulated by the British Gliding Association. The laws and rules for glider pilots issued by the BGA, contains recomended Rules, extracted from the ANO, BGA rules and recomended practices. While not actually required (in law) the BGA/FIA certificate process provides equal status:

I hold a UK Glider Pilots License and a US Glider Pilots License: The latter was issued on the basis of my UK pilots license; I became eligable for this following by Bronze + Cross-Country Endorsement. So in reality there is a direct correlation between the two. Oh and by the way, I fly regularly in the US (monthly), where the US glider pilots license means that you have effectivly gone solo, and passed an exam and not a lot else!

It's true that no licence is required to fly a glider, but the consequence of that is that glider pilots are regulated by the clubs from which they fly. In some ways this is more stringent than the regulation imposed on PPLs.

For example:

1. At my club I am not allowed to fly if I am not current. This means (with a Basic Instructor rating) I must have flown within the previous 5 weeks. If not, I must take a flight with an instructor before I am allowed to fly as PIC.

2. If I visit another club with my own aircraft, I will almost never be permitted to fly from that airfield without a flight with an instructor. This (a) informs me about any local issues such as airspace, landmarks, local deals about flying in a MATZ, areas of heavy traffic etc, and (b) enables the club I'm visiting to check out my skills. If they don't like the way I'm flying they won't allow me to launch in my own aircraft, no matter what experience or ratings I have.

I did hear that a Champion of some kind once turned up at an interesting site (v. hilly) with a film crew. He was upset about being required to take a check flight, which indicated that he had no idea how to winch launch and had never flown at a similarly difficult site. So pilot and film crew left hurriedly.

Rustle.

"Who is "we" in this context?

I would doubt the majority of IFR capable GA aircraft have TCAS. Of the people I know who regularly fly IFR/IMC in G airspace only one has TCAS in his current aircraft AFAIK..."

"We" means the company I fly for. An increasing number of operators are fitting TCAS to their aircraft, especially helicopters. Why do you ask?

Nimbus,

"Exactly what percentage of GA aircraft are fitted with TCAS?, or is the use of the royal 'we' a little too regal?"

Nothing regal about me, I'm just a working class pilot trying to minimise risk to myself and my pax. My employer's aircraft have TCAS.

"If TCAS costs soooo much, it would be cheaper to fit another transceiver on a fixed frequency of 130.4, and then you could permanently listen out"

If only I had three ears.......but two radios on the go is already enough for anyone. ;)

Paragliders in cloud
 

Phororhacos:

A subject that is repeatedly and vigorously debated on free flight forums on a regular basis but generally purely theoretically.

The first reaction of the vast majority of paraglider pilots when in danger of going into cloud is:

1. Big Ears (yes, seriously :) ) This involves pulling in the outer A lines of the glider to collapse the tips and reduce the width of the aerofoil and will give around a 200 ft/min relative descent rate.

2. Spiral dive. When fully locked in this can give around 1200 ft/min relative descent rate - about twice as strong as your average UK thermal on a good day is going up.

3. B-Line stall - pulls down the main load-carrying lines, breaking the back of the canopy and also giving about 1200 ft / min relative descent.

Moving specifically to competitions, any paraglider pilot seen going into cloud and not already actively attempting (by one of the above methods) to avoid doing so is liable to be disqualified. It is also frowned upon in general cross-country flying, including in the national cross-country league, where pilots GPS tracklogs are also submitted and analysed for any other infringements.

If it was low cloud, he would have used one of the above descent methods for certain. Low cloud has a habit of getting lower and increasing its rockiness quotient. The Dyke is also generally rather too busy to be comfortable with being in cloud for longer than about five seconds, if that!

To summarise, whilst the inherent pitch and roll stability of a paraglider means that it is possible to quite easily fly in cloud with nothing more than a compass and a variometer, or nothing in fact, it's wet, against the rules of even our less formal competitions, still disorientating and frankly, usually bloody scary.

The only place I'll do it personally is in the Alps around Annecy, where you've gotta be completely nuts to go piling through a cloud at say 8 - 12,000 ft ASL in your Cessna because there are paragliders and hanggliders everywhere (but having spent 10-15 mins thermalling up there you know yourself there are none near you).

Cheers,

Rich.