Barton Happening.................
 

Or not happenings, as the case may be.

Just that March 2005 sees the expiration of the airfield lease that LAC has with Peel Holdings /Manchester Ship Canal Co. The Aero Club has leased the land continuously since shortly after the Second World war, originally from Manchester City Council and latterly Peel.

In days gone by the new lease was sown up well in advance of the deadline. Manchester City Estates and Valuation Office administered it in typical town hall style so things proceeded at a dignified pace but always with the same out come. Each lease was 14 years long but hampered by a short redevelopment break clause that blighted investment.

The club newsletters have recently painted an optimistic picture of the future suggesting Peel would be happy for the club to continue running the show but on Peels behalf.

This hasn’t stopped a number of aircraft departing and others being put up for sale.

Rumours are now starting to circulate that things may be going wrong. I sincerely hope not. But the absence of any announcement of agreement on new terms for a lease are bound to be unsettling.

Does anyone have the inside track on this? Shaggy, Poet P, Cooperman, anyone?

Sir George Cayley

Yeah, well, just look at Sheffield. Same owners. Random changes to terms. Prices up 31% overnight. Would look nicer with offices built on it.

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Sorry Sir George, I can't throw any light on this. For those not familiar with our region, it's worth pointing out that if Barton did go, there would be NO airfield for GA between Sleap to the south, Liverpool to the West, and Blackpool to the north. Greater Manchester, probably the second largest UK connurbation after London, together with a large part of Cheshire and Lancashire, would have no GA facilities at all.

That's a sad reflection on the value this country puts on GA.

SSD

Peel Holdings is a successful property company who've invested millions to make millions, and profit margin is always their bottom line.
I've no idea what price they're asking for the lease at Barton, but it would be unrealistic to expect them to let it go for less than the market rate.
This has been on the cards for a number of years, and the directors at Barton Aero Club have always known that unless they actually bought the land themselves, they'd always have a landlord breathing down their necks.

I can only assume that when the opportunity arose to purchase the aerodrome, for whatever reason, said directors decided it would be cheaper to carry on leasing (or maybe they stuck their head in the sand?), rather than put an investment package together and buy it outright.

Anyway, that's water under the bridge, and I agree that what remains is a very sad, confusing and sorry mess.

Perhaps now would be a good time for British Aeropace to be a little bit more proactive with G.A. at Woodford.

SSD, don't add LPL into that equation, they are getting busier by the day, and it is only a matter of time that it goes the same way as at MAN, being that GA happens, and is just tolerated, but only for a lucky few. Hard trying to get circuits these days, I've even heard of guys at Liverpool, falling out of bed at 6am at a weekend, calling ATC to book circuits and then going back to bed.
Circuits at MAN are a none starter, and sadly we are heading the same wayat Liverpool. (Another Peel Entity you will note)

Sadly GA is well and truly under fire in the UK, especially in the north of England, one only needs to read the adverts in Pilot every month for schools, and they are all down south. Should the inevitable happen, I don't know where I will go to learn, as Sleap is nearly a 2 hour drive away from where I live, the sad fact is that I will probobly give it up alltogether.

I've said it before, and I will say it again, this is a short sighted view from airport operators who are only interested in the bottom line, and fail to see that without GA, and flying schools in all its guises, there wouldn't be commercial pilots. I imagine that nearly all airline pilots have at least a few hours in a 172 somewhere in the log books, and yet unless you have a couple of jets attatched to your plane, they don't want to know you.

Now Barton has been around for a very long time, and long may it continue to do so, but for the pessemists amongst us, just ask yourselves the question, who owns Barton, Which huge shopping complex is over the road, and who owns that??? I truly hope not, and short term maybe nothing will happen, but long term, who knows??? I for one fancy being involved in GA for a lot longer than any lease they may let Barton have.

As there is so little, and what we have is fading fast, we need to stand up and be counted, write to MP's (there is an election due!!) Lets protest, and lets make a difference.

On a final thought from the rant, what are the chances of Stretton being re-opened. Right in the middle of the motorway network and the Manchester Low Level Route, what better location for GA could you think of??

Barton happenings.....
 

I fear that Barton is much too close to the national motorway network to be ignored as building land by Messrs Peel. After all, they need big incomes to fuel their ambitions, and with the good road connections, they must be tempted, and there is no doubt that (sadly for the GA operators), it would fetch considerable amounts of money.
Consider Peel's recent bid for the Mersey Docks, and their need to finance this - or guarantee the money that will need to be replaced/used as collateral.
With regard to Woodford, IMHO it will not remain as an airfield for too much longer. Consider what has happened to Chadderton, and what is currently happening at Woodford (i.e. not a lot). South Manchester - prime building land - BAE Systems not in the civil aircraft manufacturing business any more...
As I said in another thread recently, whether we like it or not, the world (or at least the UK), is ruled by beancounters these days, and that, at the end of the day, is what Peel Holdings is all about. Philanthropy is rapidly disappearing from all corners of this green and pleasant land.
I thought the old Stretton airfield was divided into distribution areas, bus interchanges, lorry parks etc. Is there any space left for landing GA aircraft?
What about Hawarden? That is grossly underused - the odd Beluga, and few 125s for maintenance, and that's about it!

I'm not certain how profitable the airports division of PH is (I recall the whole Group pasted reduced profits last year).

With so much emphasis being placed on (a) profit and (b) Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield International because of it's long runway, one can envisage Sheffield City and Barton being squeezed out unless users are willing to pay the arrogant and unrealistic prices demanded.

The of course, you have the land and the rest is predictable.

The real question will be if they can attract big commercial volumes into RHDSI and JLL airports to make these pay.

Who's expanding at present (not many).

Who's expanding the most (low cost carriers).

Do low cost carriers pay penal landing and handling charges (not in their business model).

So running airports is not such good business for new start ups.

The best place for GA is in the old military fields from the expansion period, where they still have enough runway left from agriculture. The facilities may not be swish but at least they get lots of movements to pay the finance charges on the land.

This could leave GA a rural sport (to replace foxhunting etc perhaps ??)

h-r


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It will be a disgrace if anything happens to Barton !

Peel are just too big to fight , the worst thing is that rumours stick ! and anyone wanting a share like myself start to think about future consequences !

I for one don't fancy driving 50 or 60 miles to Blackpool or Harwarden to shoot off for a bimble, if i have to I will, although it will be a great shame .

Just hope it all ends well , with a decent lease ! allowing us all in the North West to carry on enjoying our hobby at a lovely little airfield.

maybe there will be some news here : http://www.bartonaerodrome.co.uk/about_future.asp

EL

:(

Obviously eveyone is looking at any available airfield to further GA, my suggestion of Stretton was for an airfield that is currently not in use that we as a GA community could gather together to make use of again. Hawarden is nice, but the approach is iffy, and if they have airbus traffic, they don't want to know you anyway.

Maybe we should all start a campaign for GA, pick an airfield (North of Watford, no offence) and set about it. What do you all think?

Stretton does still take the odd aircraft if i'm not mistaken !

It would be perfect although I would much rather hang on to Barton.

However if negotiations with the lease don't go well , or Peel start strong arm tactics I think we should definately take a stance .

No Surrender !!!
:mad:

EL
;)

Stretton would be nice (I flew a couple of practice approaches yesterday in the Citabria to Stretton, 'cause it makes an excellent practice engine fail location).

Unfortunatly, it's owned by Shell (I think). There is no incentive I know of for them to sell it, unless someone makes them an offer they can't refuse.

SSD

To the outside observer, it seems that defeat is declared at Barton every few months. Is this occasion any more *real*, than any of the other occasions that pop up in response to a Pprune search?

Has anybody attempted to engage Peel in dialogue?

2D

As those who already know the situation, MSDC/Peel have clearly stated that LAC will not be granted a lease. This remains so. The figures being shuffled around to allow LAC to run the airfield on Peel's behalf are not stacking up. Maybe this can be resolved in the next couple of weeks. There remains a substantial shortfall to be made up from somewhere if LAC are to go down that route. LAC Flying School have been told to quit the Tower block.

NikNak -
You are way off track re the likely 'sale/purchase' of Barton. It was NEVER for sale and the club could therefore only exist as a tenant. It was not sold by the Manchester City Council, 51% was transferred to Peel within the MSDC. It was NEVER on the open market, it was all under the table stuff without public knowledge or involvement. In other words outsiders were not in a position to bid more that the reputed £1M Peel are said to have *paid*.

At this point in time Peel have stated that Barton will continue as an airfield after 25th March 2005 when the current LAC lease runs out, but under Peel control. How long it remains an airfield is crystal ball gazing. Probably not even Peel know that answer, as it all hinges on what is going on around the airfield and what time scale is involved with their other projects which will impact on Barton one way or another both in the short and very long term.

Barton is most certainly of immense importance to general aviation in the area. At the moment it is a little green patch in the centre of a Peel master plan. Just across the adjacent Manchester Ship Canal, to the south east, there is the huge (Peel) Trafford Centre out of town shopping complex. To
the north of the airfield the (Peel) 'Salford Forest' horse racecourse is in the planning approval stage. To the west the M62 motorway restricts development as do the HT pylon wires. Near the Barton M60 high level ship canal bridge on the approach to 32, a new rugby stadium complex now has planning approval. The Ship Canal itself has a major (Peel) scheme in the planning approval stages to the south west aimed at bringing container ships back up the ship canal as they used to many years ago. To accommodate this development new rail and road infrastructure will have to be put in place along with warehousing, marshalling yards etc. One plan shows a new rail line cutting across runway 32 boundaries. So if all or any of this becomes real in the next 5-10-20 years, then flying activities at Barton will be affected.

For the amount of money Peel and the Manchester City Council get out of Barton, both now and in the past, it is peanuts to them. It has been suggested that it has so far cost Peel £7M in fees, planning designs, environmental impact assessments, highways agency work etc. etc. on their many projects, some of which are outlined above - and so far they have little to show, indeed the council approved Salford Reds rugby stadium was another developer's plan and not the Peel application - so no return on Peel's large expenditure on that one. Apparently Peel are so narked at loosing out to the other stadium developer that they have offered huge sums to them, to halt development. The site is now ear marked for the MGM gambling casino should the first choice of location on the other side of the city be rejected.

Barton will still be around as an airfield. How the LAC restructures itself in the short time remaining before the termination of the lease in March is the big and as yet unanswered question.

As to Woodford, BAE got their fingers burnt last time they went down the GA route, by allowing Aviation Manchester Limited to set up and use the facilities. This failed miserably and ended with BAE allegedly kicking AML out after they failed to pay two years rent. For the peanuts they would get out of any GA involvement is it worth it?

Stretton may appear ideal, but this has been researched and is not viable given the terms on offer. Mr Barry Lloyd - suggest you get in an aeroplane and fly over the place! The runway was tarmaced a few years ago. Hawarden has more activity than you give credit for, problem there is you are restricted to BAE operating hours.

As to suggestions on joining together and writing to MPs etc. etc. Are you stupid? You are dealing with Manchester City Council and Peel. They may be seperate, but to all intents and purposes they are one and the same. They are working to their own (land development) agenda - aviation activities are irrelevant! The Ratepayers of Manchester have been subsidizing GA flying at Barton for decades! Now it's time to cross your fingers and hope for a happy ending.

Dog's Bone

Re Stretton - I did add the caveat that I wasn't sure how much of it was available for GA use. I will do as you say, and check the place out for myself. If it's that well equipped, (hangars clubhouse?), why haven't GA operators moved there already?

Re Hawarden - It is actually (officially) operated by Airbus. I used to work at Hawarden, for BAe Corporate Jets (until the mighty Raytheon made most of us redundant), and even in those days a movement was an event. I've been there many times since, and there still seems to be very little activity compared with Barton, but when did movements mean anything to a beancounter?
Appreciate your comments re BAE/Airbus, but these are worth discussing, and could be overcome if those concerned are willing to pay. ATC people don't put themselves out - we all know they are paid whether they handle one movement or a hundred. I am old enough to remember when we flew Viscounts into Hawarden (CEG) on the way to London, and they had to get up early to deal with them. Of course they weren't happy, but then they're not paid for being happy!
To be fair, when I worked for BAe Corporate Jets I always found ATC willing to stay open if necessary, not just for us, but for any flights which were due. Consultation and discussion can solve a lot of problems.
I'm with you, I'm just trying to be realistic!
Re your last paragraph - agree entirely - sad to say. You can be sure that Manchester's city councillors will have spent a few 'useful hours' talking to the people at Peel. The future is not in your hands.

Barton
 

I learned to fly at Barton nearly 45 years ago (on Auster J1s with the legendary Taffy Davies and Charlie Rollo), so I should be terribly sorry to see Barton dissappear and even more sorry to see LAC go to the wall.

For almost all of the succeeding years I have lived in the South, so I am not au fait with the present situation up North. So please forgive me if what I say is something that has been well and truly thrashed out before.

Back in those days there was a small group/club with an Aircoupe that seemed to have obtained permission to share RAF Woodvale with Liverpool and Manchester University Air Squadrons. I seem to remember they had a small building/hangar on the far side of the aerodrome from the air force buildings. In those days apparently Woodvale was operated for the Air Force by Airwork Ltd.

In these days when our government expects to run the armed services on a shoestring, and the RAF is getting smaller and smaller, perhaps the MOD might be interested to earn a few extra pennies by leasing out facilities on the far side of Woodvale aerodrome.

There is still GA at Woodvale, however, it is private, no training allowed. Furthermore, we are talking about GA in the Manchester area here, and although I fly from Liverpool, the road links mean only another 20 minutes further on from Barton, in relation to where I live. Woodvale, however is nearly a 2 hour drive for me, as is Sleap, and this would be the same for most guys in this area.

This is starting to get silly, how many GA fields are there in the Manchester conurbation area, compared to down south?

Although not a fan of Barton, (Don't like the idea of grass on a wet day) I would not want to see it go. My thoughts being, go for a day out, and on return find Liverpool closed for whatever reason. Where can I go??

Sleap is that far out, my freinds in a car will never find me. Blackpool is over an hour away, if they let you in without damaging your wallet of course (See the latest Flyer Mag) or Barton.

Barton wins every time, not too far from Home, everyone knows here it is etc etc.

The mighty Peel cannot be allowed to carry on as they have been doing. Why don't they, and here's a novel idea, develop the site into a small sized regional airport. Tarmac runways, terminals that sort of thing. Only a 5 minute ride into the city, on top of the motorway network. The business flyers will love it. Or am I being silly????

Taking into account the whole Peel Aviation empire across the North, L'pool, Barton, Sheffield, RH-Donc-Shefd-Int this needs AOPA support else it will just be a talking shop.

Barton and Sheffield are the two main GA sites (ie no commercial traffic to push prices up). Without them there is a big gap (esp in the West).

Martin Robinson @ AOPA, what do you think? Or are you on the case already ...


:ok:

BL
{{ Re Stretton - I did add the caveat that I wasn't sure how much of it was available for GA use. I will do as you say, and check the place out for myself. If it's that well equipped, (hangars clubhouse?), why haven't GA operators moved there already?}}

Although the motorway cut the former airfield in two, the south part still exists and does not have any new build on it. It has been owned by Shell for probably 40 years, they use it for fuel testing and can have cars driving around non-stop 24 hours per day. They do not want anything to interfere with their schedule. The place is not for sale, there are no hangars or clubhouse as you queried. It is totally private property. Various people have made approaches to Shell over the years, and the answer has always been the same. The terms on offer would not make any aviation involvement financially viable.

I too have always found the staff at HAW to be friendly and accommodating, but for the subject topic of this thread, Hawarden is not near Manchester. ATC anywhere will always stay open if you pay. This was one of the problems at Woodford. AML would agree to pay the extra to keep the place open outside BAE hours, but there comes a point where an evening's training movements would not cover the additional expenditure. That equation would equally apply to HAW and any other airfield. I appreciate what you are saying, but in my long experience it just won't work. If I was Airbus I would not want anything to interfere with the wing production schedule which is bringing in more money and accounting for more jobs than a hundred movements of GA aircraft ever could.

As to Woodvale. Nice airfield, miles from anywhere. How long it lasts is again in the mists of crystal ball gazing. Shutting it down has been on the cards for many years and it is surprising that with the MoD cut backs it is still around. It would make a nice new housing estate for some builder. Anyway, it is nowhere near Manchester and difficult to drive to once you are off the motorway system.

Cessna 1 Plate
{{The mighty Peel cannot be allowed to carry on as they have been doing. Why don't they, and here's a novel idea, develop the site into a small sized regional airport. Tarmac runways, terminals that sort of thing. Only a 5 minute ride into the city, on top of the motorway network. The business flyers will love it. Or am I being silly????}}

No you are not being silly. It is just that this has been talked to death for the past 30+ years, so is hardly 'novel'.

helicopter-redeye
don't want to appear picky, but you have omitted Durham Tees Valley, or whatever they call Tees Side, from the Peel List. Note that in all these cases Peel have acquired the sites for the potential brownfield development areas which lie within the respective airfield boundaries. That's where the money is.

{{Taking into account the whole Peel Aviation empire across the North, L'pool, Barton, Sheffield, RH-Donc-Shefd-Int this needs AOPA support else it will just be a talking shop.}}

AOPA? Now that is silly. AOPA are really out of their depth as they found out with a similar situation when Manchester Airport tried (and mostly succeeded) in kicking GA out of Manchester Airport when the Second Runway was at the planning stages. AOPA were left scurrying off with their tail between their legs, with a parting shot of "we have deeper pockets than AOPA and we will see you bankrupt" (or words to that effect). Never came back and the local GA community were left to sort themselves out. That organisation lost a lot of members in the NW.

At least if Sheffield eventually goes you can run to Netherthorpe, DSA, maybe Gamston. What have the Barton boys and girls got? Blackpool, Huddersfield, Chester, Liverpool, Sleap. All miles away from the local Greater Manchester GA community.

But, and it is a big BUT, Barton should be around certainly in 5 years, maybe 10. The planning and project games don't come to fruition overnight. The level of flying activity will now hinge around how much an individual can afford. As it is, those taking to the 3-axis microlight route are growing month by month, with farm strips opening up all over the place. Perhaps this is the way to go if all you want is cheap pleasure flying. Light aviation in the UK as we knew it 20 years ago is effectively dead thanks to the likes of compulsory handling agents, high landing/handling fees, astronomical maintenance bills, CAA/JAA/EASA fees and regulations.

Maybe, just MAYBE, Peel will develop Barton into an upgraded permanent GA facility, something it has long cried out for, but without a long term lease no one could obtain the grants which were/are on offer to development the airfield. Now under new ownership Peel could apply for EEC grant funding. The airfield has been surveyed and plans drawn up which would include a hard runway. It is one thing to put these ideas on a CAD, it is yet another to put any part of that plan into action. So who knows what the end game will be? As has already been said, not even Peel know the answer. Barton is just one piece in the jigsaw of surrounding developments.

So Dogs Bone. Two long posts and no solution proposed (apart from do nowt) so far.

What is your concise proposal?

I have to agree, this is one for AOPA to poke away at.
Peel might be bigger and richer than AOPA, but in reference to Manchester, were talking about a major international Airport here, who are always going to get their way!.

With Barton, we are talking grass strip, with not much space to start dropping 3 mile runways into, henceforth, this is a potential problem for AOPA to sort out, so come on, lets get them on it.
How many pilots will find themselves with nowhere to go if Barton closes??

The answer from other posters appears to be "go west young man"

Don't get me wrong, Liverpool could do with more students and PPL's, but the ramp is nearly full of club and shared aircraft, and the main apron seems to creep a little closer every year. Sad to say, but the writing may not be on the wall for Liverpool, but the spray cans are being shaken allright.

And as said before, Woodvale, now there is the middle of nowhere.
OK if you live on the north of Liverpool, or Southport, something of a pain in the rectum area if you live in Manchester. I went to a safety evening there last year, show ends about half ten, gone midnight when I got home, imagine a journey like that on a Sunday morning in the summer with all the day trippers heading for Suthport?

Sleap, too bloody far in total.

Sheffield, Peel again!

The other fields mentioned are great, but not near to Manchester. The next nearest GA field to Barton is Liverpool, another 20-30 minutes by road. Or Blackpool, just touching the hour. I know I drive to Liverpool for my flying, and that is my choice, but we live in a demoracy, we should have the right to fly from where we please, within reason of course!

If Barton cannot survive, lets as a community, look at alternatives. If Stretton is a none starter thanks to Shell, then do we have any freinds of GA on the outskirts of Manchester willing to donate, or change the use of a field, build a couple of hangars and a clubhouse etc, and create a new GA field in this area??
Just a thought. Discuss.............