Ultimate Nav fit
 

Some Nav- fit advice please.

My Robin Regent is now coming up for 4 years old and I have decided to buy a new one ( pristine/ 370 hours if anybody wants my old one....).

Current fit is -

Garmin - 1 x 430 1 x 420; GTX 320 Mode C Txpdr, G1 106A Nav/ GPS Indicator, GMA 340 Audio panel;

S-TEC 30 Autopilot/ Directional gyro/ Alt. hold.

Current use is day/ VFR but will move towards more IFR/ night.

Current panel is terrific but constrained to 'Day/VFR' simply because I didn't want to pay for an ADF and 'additional' DME (that I wouldn't use anyway).

I also figured when I bought it that the ADF requirement would cease in the near future.... Not so.

So, Now looking for a certified IFR-fit. I am aware of the wonderful bits of kit on the market but am of course constrained by the fact that the the thing is on the G-Reg/ Public CofA and must therefore be certified.

I don't want anything that will be 'certified imminently' because I have had bad experiences. Nothing happens quickly.....

I feel a loyalty to Garmin but will consider Bendix King.

I would like a larger map so the 530 would be an option. However, if I did that, a 430 wouldn't fit also.

What I like about the 'twin Garmins' is my ability to monitor the map page on the 430 and the CDI on the 420 (lots of other pluses too of course). However, I would consider one larger map and thus leave room for the 'IFR Certificated' kit.

I am also thinking that the STEC 55, with altitude capture, would be nice to have too.

My expectation is that there are some clued-up guys out there, likely in the avionics business, that could assist me.

I'm keen to place the order AND NEITHER GARMIN NOR BENDIX KING HAVE YET RESPONDED TO MY EMAILS, so any help or advice will be appreciated.

All the best

HP

Make sure you get them to install a front window...you'll need that for navigating VFR when you're not HIC.:D

HIC??
 

Call me thick but whats HIC??

A front window is actually a standard fit but I suppose I could paint it out. At least it would stop all that nasty glare when I'm VFR on top.....

HP

Head In (the) Clouds?

On a more serious note, you'll find that most manufacturers of avionics have no interest at-all in supplying the public directly, they much prefer you to go through one of their local dealers. A quick search on the web should show you who that is.


G

Who ferried Aerbloke's 1947 Aeronca 160 miles for him last Friday without even a functioning compass, let alone anything electronic, and doesn't quite see the appeal of so many toys in the cockpit - I prefer the view out of the window!

Cockpit........

H-P, I would hope you are actually IFR `on top`......... as there are too many sculling around with their" Heads in the Cockpit"! when they should be looking outside,VFR or IFR !

HIC=Hairy in Command?

If you are going to flying IFR, get a good big HSI, electronic one would be ideal so you have a choice of what it shows you, ie ILS/OBS/moving map etc. Beyond that nav/coms boxes should be as small and simple as possible. Had a bad experience with an early Garmin 430 so never bothered switching it on after that, but that was in good old VFR days.

I have an all King set up with a KDM150 MFD/GPS and a KLN 94 "IRF" Gps. The 94 displays on the 150 which in turn links to the auto pilot (old century 11B) and jpi engine monitor.KMA 28 audio panel, 155 and 165 nav coms K(?) 64 dme, king 525hsi.etc.

I can look at the moving map 150 and get all the other features of the 94 at the same time.I also got redundancy as they can both work as gps's independantly so if one drops out I got the other.

Apart from the reservations below its the dogs for VFR and IFR

I was a bit pi**ed off with all concerned as the KDM 250 was released on to the market a few weeks after I had mine installed.
That has more functionality than the 150.No one told me it was comming.

If I had endless cash my ideal would be 94/250 linked plus the latest data link mode s transponder (which will display traffic on the 250 but not the 150), plus the 825 electronic hsi plus weather.

King were reasonably helpful apart from the 250 issue but an installer is where you would get the most usefull advice. Allow between 1/3 and 1/2 as much again for the cost of fitting.

Have fun

If you are going for a new a/c, I thought they offered a fully certified glass cockpit? This would do everything you could ever want, except the ADF, which you would have to add.

Rod1

showroom performance ?
 

Wonderfull things these Garmins but when flying IFR I find that the Garmin is a bit fiddley to use and it requries a lot of messing about to get the data that I require quickly..........its all in the box just hard to get at !.

The big map is of very little use when flying IFR and all the ground features just get in the way.

Changing frequencys during turbulence is a pain due to the way the cursor has to be used.

My last MEP/IR renewal was done on a garnin equiped aircraft and I found it OK but just OK.

The King KLN units are much better suited to IFR the logic is very close to the Flight managment systems on the bigger jets and having not much map should not be a problem after all most of the garmin map is just a VFR chart "security blanket".

My favoured option for the IFR fit for Hairyplanes Robin taking into account the robins modest pannel space would be:- King KLN 89B or 94 GPS , 2 KX165A nav/com's KN62 DME (yes the 100w unit!) KR87 ADF (Narco ADF ? dont even go there !!) and a KT76? mode S transponder for the the audio something from PS engineering who are the masters of audio (apart from one unit that has a few problems).

NO MAP !!!! the cry I hear from the cheap seats!...........At the moment Sandel are about to produce a daylight any angle readable Glass HSI/ ND with a 2000 hour lamp to drive it , the shipping date is april 2005.
This unit will do most of what you want in terms of diplay along with the King GPS and mode S transponder and an fuel/ADC from Shadin will do 98% of what an airliner FMC will do at a fraction of the cost.

And once the whole lot is in the aircraft dont forget to get a cooling fan .......worth its weight in gold.

Getting there....
 

Thanks to all who have responded.

I have had a very helpful response from Garmin Europe and they have invited me down to try a simulator fitted with their recommended fit.

Once I have finalised it I'll post again.

Meanwhile, any further advice will be appreciated.

VBR

HP

A sandel EHSI is a brilliant pice of kit. I flown an aircraft that had a sandel coupled to a 430 + STec autopilot. The auto slew feature is excelent when flying gps flight plans or approaches. No more twisting of dials for the new leg. The 70 deg arc view is also excellent when flying NDB approaches since the needle is bigger and deviations can be easily detected. It also has a map mode which is good for situational awareness. You can also display the same info as an RMI (if coupled to the ADF).
It also has some neat functions like sync and shift sync. If you want the autopilot to hold your present hdg, instead of rotating the hdg bug just press sync and the bug goes right to the top and press hdg on the a/p. And if you want to track direct to a VOR, pressing shift sync rotates the trackbar to the radial you're on the press nav on the. Little things to reduce the workload in the cockpit. You can also display stormscope info.
All this in a 3"X3" instrument. It isn't that cheap though aprox US$8k. But it's almost a waste driving some cheap 1960s junk HSI with £(tens of thousands) worth of kit.
Using the STec I've noticed the 1/2-1 bar deflection thingy too. I think it tracks a better if you intercept your track using hdg mode. But it does a good job overall, the Stec can fly a DME arc (GPS overlay) quite accurately.

Hairy,

The Lance has the Garmin 480 (was CNX80) with an MX20 MFD (with integrated stormscope and traffic) and S-TEC55X with altitude repeater and the Sandel.

Drop me an email/PM if you want to have a look.

FD

With out doubt the Sandel EHSI is a clever bit of kit doing all and more than Capt manuvar says but it has two big problems , First is that you can't see it from the right hand seat and it's performance in bright sunlight is poor. Second it has a 200 hour life bulb and sods law states that it will fail on a dirty night when the WX is overcast at 300 with 600M RVR.

Sandel are adressing these problems with a new display that is based on a Biz jet VSI the unit will have all the features of the presant unit but the projection system will have a 2000 hour life from the light sorce and will work in bright sunlight and be visable frm the RH seat.

Sandel expect to be shipping these units in April 2005.

I went through this exercise in detail about a year ago and ended up with a 530 and 155 in the panel, the 155 giving the route and textual data that you are considering getting off a second 430 and also driving a IIIc Tracker on the yoke.

IFR is based on the 530, VFR assisted by the IIIc. Works well for me.

Totally agree about HSI...an absolute must. I would also suggest an electric AI as a backup.

Go for the wonderful Garmin audio panel.

There is an excellent ADF indicator which behaves like an RMI, but is actually driven from the HSI and therefore is relatively cheap.

Don't forget the Mode S. Again, the Garmin unit is good.

The trouble, as I understand it from my tame radio bloke, with the Garmin 430/530 is that it's all in one box...radio,GPS, etc...if said box goes west you lose a lot/the lot...hence why many Garmin fits have one of each...that's a lot of money in anyone's book.

For this reason I went with the following when I replaced the radios in my Bonanza a year ago.

Garmin GMA 340 audio panel
KLN 90b IFR/App GPS
Kx155 Navcom
Icom slimline second VHF (VFR)

I left in place the original

KR87 ADF
King DME
Century 111 autopilot
HF (this is Australia we still use HF sometimes)

The KLN90b and kx155 were OHC but are effectively brand spanking new...the 340 audio and ICOm were new.

While the 767 I fly for a living has all the EFIS moving map stuff I think it is over kill in a light aircraft and does not give you the systems redundancy I like....in the 767 of course we have multiple ADCs, EFI etc so not an issue...you won't have that in your average light aircraft.

I'm not much impressed with the new all glass cockpits for the same reasons...they are more marketing than substance in my opinion.

In my aircraft I can lose any one system and be unaffected in any way.

The other positive is that the gear I fitted was relatively cheap because every man and his dog is salivating over G530/430s etc. Good OHC KLN90bs and KLN 94s are very cheap and an excellent unit. Use the money you save to fit a good HSI if you think you need it. I never fly ILSs in my Bonanza because nowhere in Australia has them outside capital city airports and I don't go to them...I just fitted a new king CDI with the Kx155.

DGI (heading), Clock (time), map (orientation), eyes(lookout), brain(optional nowdays). :eek:

Scarcely an answer to the question :rolleyes:

If the question had been "How do I equip an SEP for daylight VFR bimbling?" it might have been a useful contribution.

Ah, so the basis of navigation has no place in the funky IFR environment, thank ye zirr, I am now enlightened, sorry for stepping on your cloud. :suspect: