Don't want a service...
 

Is there a service you can get if you don't want a service?

Lets imagine a situation. Its a nice sunny Sunday afternoon, you're out sightseeing with a passenger. You're intentions are to fly around looking at interesting things. Sometimes low level, sometimes high level. Perhaps fly over the top of a reasonable sized airport and do some steep turns to let the passenger have a good look at the big planes. Maybe later a VNE dive for the sake of it and go have a look at a bridge or a bit of coast or the passenger's house. Sometimes the passenger has the controls and is frankly just messing about, up down, sideways, whatever. Point is that there is no particular way you could announce your intentions for an FIS service because you have no idea what your intentions are. But you are well aware of the airspace and stay outside CAS and ATZs, you are well aware of the 500ft and land clear rules and don't breach them and you keep a look out and you squawk Mode C.

So you're not talking to anyone because you don't have to, wouldn't really know what to say and frankly don't really want to. But you are listening in to a relevant frequency and can hear the controller getting vexed about unknown traffic. You'd like to help out just to get some peace on the frequency but don't want to have to announce every change from the last reported heading, altitude, intentions etc.

Is there a call you can make or is the only option for a bit of peace to switch frequencies?

Yes. It's called a Flight Information Service ;)

As forhow about "General handling to the north of SomeTown, various altitudes between 1000' and 8000'."

A related, equally interesting question is what to say when you're announcing your intentions to, say, an A/G airfield, who can't give you a FIS. I've used phraseology like "request to transit your ATZ at 1500', will maintain a listening watch on this frequency until clear" in the past, and that seems to have kept everyone happy.

FFF
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Agree with FFF, as usual.

If i'm passing close to or under some controlled airspace (e.g. Solent's class-D) i'll make a call along the lines of "G-CD, A to B, passing under your zone at 1800 feet on ... no service required". This lets them know that the non-squawking blip on the radar has some idea what is going on. They're busy, they don't want to bother with me (no jokes, Saab :) ) and I don't want a service from them anyway because they probably aren't going to tell me anything useful. Simple. It isn't in CAP413 but nobody complains... and I learned it off Genghis, so it must be alright... :)

Aim Far

What is wrong with turning your radio off under the circumstances you describe? Or, if that causes any sweaty palms, tune it to 121.5.

If you are operating under VFR and are well outside controlled airspace, I very much doubt that there is an ATCO anywhere who cares enough about you to *want* to talk to you.

You aren't helping them by calling them, and you are destoying what would be for you, an otherwise peaceful flight.

If you are operating close to but outside controlled airspace, the same applies. The controller will not normally be vectoring IFR traffic outside controlled airspace, and where this is a necessary evil, he will be applying separation against you whether you call in or not.

Once you have called in though, the level of service being provided needs to be agreed unambiguously. Currently, the levels of service broadly fall into FIS, RIS, RAS and RCS.

Even if exchanging the phrase Flight Information Service with the controller strikes you as being over the top, it has a value in that it unambiguously sets expectations on both sides as to the service being provided.

Request?
 

I agree with FFF as far as the FIS is concerned but isn't there a problem with requesting permission from an A/G service? I always understood that they could not give permission. I think that the most they should say is that 'the circuit is active', if that.

Indeed "request to transit..." is an inappropriate thing to say to an A/G station.

You just need from them any information relevant to your transit of the ATZ, at which point you have fulfilled your obligations under the rules of the air, and you should inform them that you are transiting.

I always try to give parachuting sites (like Headcorn or Goodwood) a call if I'm going to be in the vicinity, even if I'm going to be well above or clear of their ATZ - it helps to know if there's going to be fast-moving human beings bearing down on you!

They generally appreciate the courtesy of a "Headcorn radio, G-ABCD routing S of you @ x000, is the drop zone active"

No jokes EVO! :D

SD

There is a related problem which I find vexing.

Like Aim Far and 2D, I prefer to leave the radio on 121.5 when in Class G on a nice clear day, if I don't need to penetrate airspace (indeed 2D and I flew Biggin-Dunkeswell and back on Saturday without talking to anyone except the two airfields, for example.)

But you can get "sucked in" if you start in Class D airspace that forms part of the LARS network. For example, you depart Teesside, you have to talk to Teesside Approach (obviously, you are in their Class D), then as you leave the zone they say "Radar Information Service" and you don't want to sound rude or ungrateful, so you reply "Radar Information Service", then the next thing you hear is "Squawk xxxx", then "Contact Leeming 127.75, they have you identified"

You are, of course, terribly grateful that everyone is looking after you so nicely, but actually you just want to chat to your mate, or listen to the Archers. Obviously you can say "no, thank you"...it just sounds a bit churlish!

Timothy

Aim Far

FIS is the lowest level of service an ATC unit can give you - if you don't want it - then don't call, as 2D's so well explains. Monitoring the frequency is good however and, if you do feel you're the guy that he's getting vexed about - then come up on the frequency and ask for a FIS - it's no great shakes to the Controller concerned and gives him an idea as to what you're doing.

However - if you don't call I would ask you to squawk 7000 with mode 'C'. Even if you're not talking that can still be a great help as it reduces the separation required with you from a blanket 5 miles to 5 miles or 3000ft - a great help when you may be 20 miles away from the airfield but still right in the way of an inbound being radar vectored from medium or high level. (One of my units main arrival routes leaves airways 40 miles away from the field and so has to be vectored through class G 'bandit country' ;) )

Timothy

That's a bit naughty in the first place - what you should be asked is "G-**** leaving controlled airspace - what type of service do you require?". It's a verbal contract between pilot and controller, and as such the type of service should not be imposed. It's not sounding ungrateful if you downgrade to FIS, and indeed on a busy day the controller will be grateful (Though if he'd done it properly in the first place.....................................! ;) )

Saab, FWIW i don't think there is parachuting at Goodwood.

Evo,

There may not be regularly, but there was on the day that I intended to transit in their overhead and was informed that they were dropping from 10k!

If you're not careful I'll say "Solent" :)

SD

FFF, further to your earlier post, I would also declare the altimeter setting (QFE or QNH) so that based traffic have an idea what height you might be.

Aim Far
If you are going to subject your passenger to some "low level", some "steep turns so that they can see planes on the ground" followed by "maybe a VNE Dive for the sake of it" you may well find that you will be looking for a sick bag for a terrified passenger rather than an ATC Service.
Sorry
UV

Aim Far,

Though what you are saying you would be legal, but think about it, is it wise to fly around, over, or near a medium to large airport without talking to the controllers? No it isn't.

Here in the U.S. I would hope that the pilot would contact me, tell me that he would be sight seeing near at an altitude or altitudes. If I need to I might resrict your altitude so that you do not interfer with other traffic, but unless you get in the way I will normally leave you alone.

The whole situation is safer, ATC knows what you are doing, and unless your flight gets into the way you are left alone.

Mike
NATCA FWA

2D, there's no doubt that what you say is legal but there are a good many airports that have no options but to vector traffic using the airport through Class G airspace. Some of these airports are regularly handling Boeings and Airbuses and trying to dodge an aircraft doing aeros or something similar is no fun - a call from the unknown aircraft can be very helpful.

CM may be more equivocal on the topic but he may not be dealing with the situation as frequently as some of his colleagues just a dozen miles or so South of him!

Spitoon.

Clearly if somebody is doing aeros just outside a control zone, then it would be prudent to call in. I don't think anybody would disagree with that.

Similarly, if you are intending to show off above a large airport, then checking in for the FIS is a clever thing to do.

My answer really addressed the more normal question relating to what service you should ask for if you are well outside controlled airspace.

Mike NATCA. The profound differences in airspace design in the US, combined with the complete difference in services types offered to VFR aircraft by US ATC make it difficult to apply the logic of one country to another. However, I completely agree with the general point that if you are pratting around flying aerobatics above a large airport, it would be a good idea to call them. I don't really see anybody disagreeing with that.

Spitoon - to 'pinch from 2D's As did mine - I'd like to know who everyone is inside a 20 mile radius north of me, both for myself and for the airport 12 miles south - outside that distance I'm more than happy to provide a service if asked, but if they don't want the service then at least give me the information that a transponder can give that is most help (the aircrafts level). When the tables are reversed and coming off airways doing 250Kts the first call I get is "Traffic left, 10 o'clock, 9 miles crossing left to right no height" then the sphincter twitch is quite pronounced!

Interesting comments.

Well yes and no. You can probably guess something like this happened at the weekend. I was well above the CAS of the airport in question. The controller in question was mouthing off generally in a withering tone about unknown traffic (and there were maybe three unknowns including me) in her traffic advice to those she was talking to (four light aircraft by the sound of it). It was fairly clear that she didn't accept that there were any aircraft which were entitled to not talk to her. Having listened to her for a while, frankly I didn't want to talk to her.

For the record, I was squawking Mode C and was nowhere near the area where airways flights would leave CAS for the approach. I wasn't doing aeros over the airport, just a couple of turns to get a better look before heading off in another direction. In fact, if I had being doing aeros, that would be easier to call in since I would have been predicable and in a fairly small area.

I guess it was just the attitude of the controller in question that got me going.

FWA NATCA - I would always try to talk to the controllers if I thought I had something to tell them that would be useful. But the flight I described couldn't really be called "known traffic". How would it help them to know that they can't assume I'm going to be predicable? Are they going to block out a whole pile of airspace for me?

I think I'll try the "no service required call" and see if that works.

Having said what you have, it will now be difficult to name the airport concerned, but it would be interesting to know where you were.

There are many airports with instrument approaches and holds outside controlled airspace; Cranfield is a good example. Orbiting above the ATZ "outside controlled airspace" would cause enormous difficulties if you chose not to speak to the controller.

Any hints?

Aim Far - as they say in US, diff'r'nt strokes! :) What you did (the way you describe it) wasn't breaking any rules, but I would suggest that by not talking to the air trafficker in question to notify your intentions, you were adding to her workload and were another dimension in her 'What If...' scenario planning and consequently, her stress levels.

I've maybe come from a background where I'm happy to talk to anyone whose job would be made easier if they knew my intentions without necessarily thinking 'I want to be controlled' or 'I'll lose my freedom if I talk to them'. Maybe my rebellious streak has faded and needs re-painting..... ;) :D

There is the "alerting service" below FIS. This exists to notify S&R services if necessary. I've only heard of it being used explicitly when talking to London Info when still in the Paris FIR, the service being upgraded to FIS on reaching the FIR boundary. I remember reading somewhere that an alerting service is automatically provided when you contact any ATSU.

CAP413 doesn't suggest that "Essex Radar, G-ABCD request alerting service" is standard phraseology.

MC.

So if I want to talk to no-one, what do I say to the previous controller/AFISO/A/G when leaving the frequency?

The older generation often use 'QSY enroute' which seems to work but 'G-XX leaving the frequency' tends to be queried or misheard.

I was always taught to be explicit and say 'G-XX changing to XYZ on NNN.NN' or 'G-XX request frequency change to XYZ...', neither of which is approproriate if I'm going to turn the radio off.

What do other people use?

Mark

if I'm going to turn the radio off.

What do other people use?


G-XY changing to enroute, thanks, bye.

I sometimes say "changing to en-route frequency" and have never had any problems so far.

Also worth pointing out that, even if ATC hand you over to the next unit by telling you to "Contact" them (rather than freecall them), if you don't want to go, then just tell them that you don't want to go, and they'll cancel the handover.

(Happened to me last summer, when I was getting a LARS from a quiet frequency. They very kindly arranged my handover to the next frequency, but they didn't realise that I was about to cross a danger area, and needed to contact London Information for a DACS. No problem - I declined the handover and told them why, they told me to freecall London Information, and I presume they phoned the next unit to tell them not to expect me.)

FFF
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Aim Far,

I'm a controller in the U.S. at FWA (Fort Wayne Intl.) so some of our procedures will be different from what you encounter in the U.K.

Using the airport that I work at, the airport is located about 5 miles south of the city. Often a pilot will take friends or family up flying to see the city from the air, if you call on with your intentions, I for one don't have to worry about what that VFR aircraft is doing, and it allows me to verify your altitude, which helps for when I have to issue traffic.

In addition we have two general aviation airports and four private air strips within ten miles of FWA so the odds of you becoming a factor (traffic) for someone is pretty high.

Mike
NATCA FWA

Whilst I agree with most of what has been put forward in answer to Aim Fars original post, there's little that's more pointless than listening on an ATC frequency and not speaking to the unit.

In common with many UK atco's, both in and outside controlled airspace, we will provide a FIS or Radar service to not only our own traffic but also to transit aircraft. It's in our own interests to do so, and enhances flight safety for everyone.

I don't know where you're based Aim Far , but it would be a very good idea to spend a few hours in your local non military ATC unit, (especially one that provides a radar service), just to get an idea of what our side of the picture is.

PM me if you want any contact details.

NIKNAK,

I get your drift, but there can be some occasions where it serves a purpose. By listening out, you can sometimes determine that you are the source of the problem - a good time to initiate contact. If not, saves everyone some R/T load, especially if it seems busy.

This has happened to me, when the "FIR" frequency was like a children's playground (and equally undisciplined), and getting air time was almost impossible. However, by monitoring the frequency I was aware of traffic in my vicinity, and was able to keep a more pertinent watch.

As to the original question, I have used the following "no service required, maintaining a listening watch on the frequency". Remember to announce when leaving the frequency, though.

Attractive though this is, I think it would be a bad technique to adopt.

When you speak to ATC in the UK, you are announcing your existence and contracting with them for a level of service. The service levels are, generally speaking, FIS, RIS, RAS and RCS depending on your flight rules, location and circumstances.

There is no service below FIS, so that once you have popped up on frequency, unless you have given the ATCO reason to believe that you have popped off again or been turned down by the ATCO, you are under FIS whether you like it or not. If the ATCO can't be bothered to re-enforce that by making you jump through the hoop of exchanging the words "Flight information Service", that is another issue.


Clarity is the goal in any RT. Destroying that clarity with non-standard calls is not doing anybody any favours IMHO.

2D

All good points so far. Just a couple of additions:

1) Mode C is very useful, but bear in mind that unless the controller has 'verified' or knows that someone else has verified the Mode C they can use it as information only. Verifying Mode C is achieved by asking an aircraft on the R/T to report its level and comparing that with what the Mode C shows. It cannot be RELIED upon under other circumstances as transponders have been known to be several hundred or thousand feet out. So to be blasting about just over the top of CAS might well be legal, but you will be causing some concern to the controller who will not be CERTAIN that you are at the level your Mode C indicates.

2) Although you may not want a service, to be listening or even known traffic to an air traffic unit might just give you the edge in avoiding collisions. It is likely that other aircraft will call into that unit and you will be able to be aware of their presence and vice versa. Given your example flight profile (but why would you want to do a Vne dive for fun and risk overstressing the airframe or popping a door open), could you not just give general info as already suggested: "Operating to the NE between 1000' and 4000', will call complete"? A Flight Information Service can of course be enhanced by the more information you give, but it is not mandatory.

I would also echo other ATCOs' opinions so far that if you are close to CAS, please call so that you become one less "unknown" part of the jigsaw.

Just to enlarge on eyeintheskys comments

1) verified mode 'C' you can accept as gospel, and as such avoid by 1000ft (but you'd normally co-ordinate with the other unit to avoid any nasty surprises like climbing and descending into each other). If it's unverified it's still useful because although it's information it means we can come over the top of you no closer than 3000ft - a lot more sensible than vectoring your traffic round the sky to try and get 5 miles is the option to slow down the descent. So just because you're not talking to anyone get that Mode 'C' ON

2) A number of times today I had traffic going through my final approach between 4 and 8 miles showing no level, just squawking 7000. A blind call on the frequencies (VHF and UHF) stating the position and direction of flight, was, in a lot of cases, sufficient for the guy to come up (they'd been monitoring - mainly Mil helo's but the odd light single) with a "That's me - I'm at 1000ft" - very, very useful. (The joys of IAP's in Class 'G' airspace!) Read the maps guys - be VERY aware of those 10 mile chevrons on your charts and remember they may apply to the other end of the runway too.

As far as I understand it, any ATSU that acknowledges your callsign is bound to provide an alerting service - even an A/G station which can't provide a FIS; i.e. if you drop off frequency unexpectedly they should initiate SAR action.

Had an interesting experience with a certain East Anglian USAF controller (not that I blame her, I hasten to point out) - I was transitting above her MATZ and gave her a courtesy call, which was acknowledged with callsign and Standby; I heard no more from her and when I called to QSY when clear of her area she didn't actually have a note of my callsign, so I couldn't really have had an alerting service even...! She was incredibly busy sequencing big American jets into the approach, which is why I don't blame her, but she was really overstretched.

Tim