Never mind the bl**dy watch, how about if they actually send the magazine instead.

Quote from Pilot magazine web site

"you will also receive Pilot magazine each month, hot off the presses. Subscribers' copies of Pilot are posted a few days in advance of the magazine going on sale in newsagents. You need never miss a copy again!


I am still waiting for the latest Pilot magazine.
Three phone calls, and three promised "I'll get the copy out today" and I am still waiting. Could have bought the Feb issue 2 weeks ago from the flying school.

Yakker,

Please email me direct - [email protected]

I'd like to get you a copy asap and also find out who you spoke to.

FFF
Absolutely.

Glad you said that yakker.

I didn't renew my subscription for that very reason.

I learned a good lesson with tall the hassle I had with getting my subscription copies through. That lesson was.....if you haven't got staff who are good with customers, don't put an email contact adress in your magazine. If you have got staff who clearly don't give a chuff for their customers, don't bother even offering them free gifts, they 'aint gonna come back.

Sorry Sam, but I believe you have opened up a can of worms for yourself now that you have revealed your identity. Perhaps you should take a leaf out of Mr Seager's checklist, his only post here has been professional, quite funny and unbiased.

When there was one mag we had no choice.

When there were two mags people were prepared to buy both.

Now there are three, I don't think the Pilot boys can face up to the fact that they're resting on their laurels somewhat. :rolleyes:

Sam I hope this dosn't come across as a bit cheeky but...

All the mags are either ppl only and only deal with VFR flying. Which i will admit is proberly a very high percentage of your readers.

How about some more technical flying articles?

Not really the spanner stuff although a few of them wouldn't go a miss.

But finer points of instrument flying and the common cockups flying certain procedures. And examples of what to do when ATC require you to step outside SOPs. Ie max speed until 4dme etc.
You could even case study particular horrible ones. Faro islands, the cloud break at SUM comes to mind.

A case example or 2 of common incidents detailing what the pilots problems were and how they dealt with them and the process which is going on with ATC dealing with the problem.

Off the top of my head

Pilots entering IMC
Unsure of position
Rough engine
Bad wx

I know from nights in the pub. What ATC have been told what we will do is quite different than in real life. And also I didn't have a clue the processes or the resources available to me as a pilot through ATC if required, until these pub nights.

You never know it may help ppl's see the benifit of keeping a IMC not only valid but also current.

MJ

MJ,

It's an interesting topic but why don't you write an article on the subject yourself?

(And then send it to Flyer :} )

mad_jock

I agree entirely regarding the very low-end coverage in the UK mags, but they are probably reflecting the bulk of their readership: low time PPL pilots (perhaps < 10hrs/year), antique type owners (usually very low time too), plane spotters.

And I bet most of the readership is skint, so little point in articles about modern planes, modern nav methods, etc.

Very very occassionally an article appears which addresses something a bit higher up but then it often contains what I consider gross errors - probably gets printed because nobody on the staff is any different from the above mentioned readership. Flyer is occassionally OK.

I am a born engineer with the dyslexia to prove it.

Attempting to sit down and write something which isn't a spontanious commiting to paper is akin to torture for me.

Hence I now work as a pilot not a Mechanical Engineer which required reports to be written. Thats not the only reason, if i had had the chance at 17 I would never have gone to Uni,.But hey who knows I use my engineering knowlege and problem solving everyday at work as a pilot.

But why is JF such a strong pulling point for Flyer? His stuff is very broad based which appeals to all aviators. Its the way the technical stuff is written which makes the difference. Unfortunatly most technical pieces are written in the style of Thom and as soon as most ppl's start reading that style will switch off after the pain of the PPL exams. Personally I don't have a problem reading Engineering style reports its actually easier for me than normal newspaper stuff because i only have to read 10% of the piece to get the full content ( its a dyxie thing skim reading only lifting the keywords and data but you need to have some knowledge of the subject to fill the rest in). And also most of these writers have forgotten that a picture says a 1000 words.

I am not saying the pieces should be huge like the "I flew the wife up to Kirkwall for a shag via Oban and Stornway" type stuff.
Just short simple page long stuff which deals with topics which everyone can relate to in theory if not in practise.



MJ

I know that this thread started off about a cheapo watch offer, but now that it has quickly descended into a general magazine bashing exercise I thought I'd stick my oar in too.:D

It strikes me that all 3 mainstream magazines have become sad clones of each other. This months Ultimate High cover feature in Pilot tells us nothing that the seemingly identical article in Flyer did a few months ago. Why can't the commisioning editors see that recycling other peoples good ideas is going to increase the readerships boredom rather than their own circulation figures.

All aircraft flight tests read as identi-kit articles and are often so turgid and unimaginative as to make aircrafts actual POH look like a literarcy masterpeice by comparison. It is the writing equivilent of "painting by numbers". Further more, the constant references to "as we turned onto base we lowered 30 degrees of flap" rather than "I" lowered 30 degrees of flap does give the nagging doubt that it is the factory demonstration pilot rather than the writer doing the flying (or is that just me)?

Articles based on peoples flying holidays are often about as interesting as your neighbours holiday snaps (which in reality is pretty much all the articles add up to anyway). The content of these articles is never far away from woke up at X, had breakfast, flew to Y, had lunch, then flew to Z, had dinner then went to bed (x 7 or 10 days etc.). It's probably very interesting to the author, but not usually that exciting to the readership at large. These articles are only salvaged on the rare occasions that a) there is an actual purpose to the flying, b) the destination and/or flying experience are truly unique or c) the author is a good enough snapper to pad out the prose with some above average pictures.

What is missing from the vast majority all articles in these magazines is originality and an element of passion. The reason that JF is so well thought of is that his knowledge and authority are beyond doubt but more importantly there is a "spark" and enthusiasm that shines through his writing. The only decent article in this months crop of magazines in Bob Grimstead and family having a go at tandem skydiving. (I've no interest in the subject matter itself but the quality of both writing and photography made it a great read). One of the 3 mainstram mags could do worse than give our own PA her own column as her trials and tribulations on her way to her PPL would certainly inject some life and humour into the magazine.

As Mad Jock says a wider imagination when it comes to commisioning articles with more challanging content from people who can REALLY write would start to transform the magazines. I know a number of posters to this forum are also bikers. For those that aren't have a look at a copy of "Bike" magazine. The quality and passion of some of the writing far surpasses what is in the average flying mag. Some of these journos seem to enjoy a regular adrenaline rush - why not commision one of them to do his PPL or an aeros course and see what his account is like. Dave Calderwood, editor of Pilot, is an ex- bike mag journo I seem to remember so maybe he can give the mag a good kick up the @rse.

Anyway, sorry - Rant over.

Mr. W

IMHO - if you want a really good read, join (the original USA) AOPA and get their magazine. Far, far better than the UK competition and with the dollar where it is international membership costs the same as - or possibly slightly less than - a one-year P*lot sub. The UK AOPA mag is also good, but sadly it's also got less content and membership is a lot more expensive...

I do subscribe to both Flyer and Pilot, although i'm increasingly wondering why - especially with Pilot. I agree with Mr. Wolfie, I'm fed up with reading reviews of the same aeroplane/course/whatever in both. Flyer at least has John F and Irv.

Edit: while i'm on my soapbox, i'm fed up with fuggin' articles about flying from here to bogdovia. Took off. Landed. Had lunch. Put fuel in aeroplane. Took off. Landed. Bit overcast. Had lunch. Repeat for four pages... it's good cheap filler from someone who took a few pictures, but it's no use to anybody and oh so dull...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree entirely regarding the very low-end coverage in the UK mags, but they are probably reflecting the bulk of their readership: low time PPL pilots (perhaps < 10hrs/year), antique type owners (usually very low time too), plane spotters.

And I bet most of the readership is skint, so little point in articles about modern planes, modern nav methods, etc.

Very very occassionally an article appears which addresses something a bit higher up but then it often contains what I consider gross errors - probably gets printed because nobody on the staff is any different from the above mentioned readership. Flyer is occassionally OK.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

IO540


Antique owners low time? There may be some (but < 10 hours, no way), but most are masters of their craft - they need to be to keep the sharp handling skills those types demand so have to put in regular hands-on hours. No autopilot in a Stampe. Not many skint Spit owners, either.

And for coverage of 'modern planes', go buy yourself a copy of 'Practical Woodworker'.

SSD

'nuff said eh............

There is no failure, only feedback.

The magazines are getting some very useful, free feedback here.

Maybe some of it stings, but its very valuable.

Quote : general magazine bashing exercise

Actually no it isn't. It is turning into an exercise in the bashing of one particular magazine - and why not?. Any magazine which ignores the needs of the readership base deserves to be bashed.

FLYER does not get bashed. TP does not get bashed.

The broad concensus of this thread, and of this forum, is clear PILOT is XXXX and PPRUNE probably provides better content.

Being involved in the magazine world I know that a magazine editor and publisher lives by his last circulation figures. Circulation going down when competitor circulation is increasing usually means reaching for the C/V. Circulation increasing usually means a bonus.

Every magazine needs to find its place in the market. It is not just raw numbers but who the people are behind the numbers that matters.

Those who participate in this thread have made their own decision and they have every right to do so.

Personally I read them all and find certain elements of each to be good and certain elements of each to be poor. Offering me a watch will make no difference to my reading habits (nor probably my flying skills). Presumably to some people it swings the balance between subscribing to one mag and another and as the newstrade mags exit for profit one can only assume that there is some long term positive effect from offers of this nature.

Ultimately though the newstrade mags will stand or fall on achieving the right audience for their advertisers. The posters on PPRUNE are obviously going to do little to line the pockets of PILOT. The evidence here is that FLYER is tops, TP inoffensive, and PILOT is crap (the AOPA mag stands apart as a non newstrade mag). Evidence from other sources might suggest a different pattern.

Surely this rich tapestry of opinions and evidence is something which makes the world a better place. If not we would all be flying similar aircraft having travelled to the airfield in similar cars.

I'm with the Wolf in looking for better and more varied content. F3Greens is right this is all feedback. Whether some of the publishers will regard it as valuable and free (assuming that criticism dents sales and therefore costs) it remains to be seen.

I think Flyer does get bashed - it's just slightly more subtle, because you tend to hear people saying "...at least it has John F...". The implicit statement here is that without John F it's got b*gger all else at times.

The other reason people bash Pilot is that it used to be really good and has declined. I'd guess most people who have read it for more than a couple of years still expect better.

And this is an interesting point. How are you supposed to grow circulation when the number of pilots in this country is decreasing? You can target non-pilots, but that's going to dilute the content for your original audience.

Ok, my gripe now is the way it has gone right off the scale for thread hi-jacking. It started with a question about a watch and this has still not been answered and never will if the thread continues to go the way it is. Straight from the horses mouth. Feedback regarding magazines content, not a bit about the original question at all. You want feedback you will get it here both good and bad but please leave this thread alone and start another flying mag bashing/feedback thread. Yellow card time guys.

Now then Sam, about this watch you were going to send us...... ;)

Bringing the thread swiftly back on track, has anybody got one of these wonder watches yet?

Will they admit it?

Did they keep it?

Did they indeed pass it on to an unsuspecting relative, friend, domestic animal?

Just as the thread ran the severe risk of getting interesting, we are returned to the much more exciting subject of cheap watches.:{

BRL
I thought that was the point about free speach and forums of this sort?.

Personally I would rather hear about the watch which I have been unable to get my hands on but then the debate which seems to generate the greater interest (as always) is that which surrounds the magazines available to us in the U.K.

I suppose you could just change the topic line then it wouldnt be 'off topic'!.

Apparently the watcvhes have been popular which presumably means people have taken out subs with a watch. So someone must have one unless the watch went straight in the bin. Reviews of said watch please as I guess the magazines wont rewiew it!

2Donks, then start an interesting thread about the subject then if you feel like it. Just don't use this one which is about watches not quality of mags.

FF. Free speach and all that I agree with 100%, thread hi-jacking I don't. Simple realy. The guy asked a question about a watch, not how good/crap flying magazines are.

As the old joke goes:

... Say Ma'am was I married to you once?

2D

On nights for the next few nights so think of me more of your mother-in-law........ :E

Page 5 now and still no sign of anyone with these watches........

BRL - But at least all the "off-topic" posts are keeping it at the top of the list so there is still the chance! :D

Mr. W

I could review my cheapo casio watch if you like?

Talking of watches, I have an ex-Transair Seiko P watch that I no longer require, should anyone want it pm me.

Who will spare me from this turbulent moderator?

The thread has not been hijacked. It has gone off at slight, but more interesting tangent. This is how conversation works in real life and is one of reasons that pprune is such a good site. When the thread gets boring, people will stop reading and it will die its own little death. It doesn't need intervention from any control freaks who think they know best.

If the original poster wants to put a reply asking people to get back to his topic, then fair enough. (Although what more can be said I don't know).

Yellow card indeed.:ugh:

Now about that crap magazine....

Well said Strafer. I expect it'll be two red cards now ;)

A reader did send me a email regarding the watch. I posted the remarks on page 1 of the thread.

I've also ordered another 200 watches - that's 420 in total.

If you need a watch it's a good offer. If you don't it's not. It isn't an act of desperation - it's an act of taking advantage of a great deal when it was presented. As I said earlier - Pilot doesn't need to gift subscriptions but this was too good to miss. No apologies for that!

As for comments about the mag - I prefer to hold focus groups and chat to people at clubs/events to find out views. It's more personable and easier to communicate those types of views one on one or in a group than via the written word from your home or office. I don't dismiss the comments but I would like to explore them further. Im at all the events (FLY/Aerofair/GVFW/PFA/PFA Scotland/Old Buckenham) and would love it if people came and gave feedback there.
I dread to think what new avaitors might think from reading this thread!
Please don't take that as dismissing your views - I value them- but I would like to explore them in more detail - Including the positive ones.

It's very subjective. Sometimes it can be very easy to think that the good old days were much better but having been down to the vaults and gone through copies from 1971 onwards I can't see it.

There are some real classic issues (YAK 18T on the front - 2001) is one of my favourites but when you go through them on mass I have to say that on balance I prefer Pilot as it is now. The Nanchang edition is a classic.
In the end we (magazines) either listen or die. Those that feel the need for improvement - please email me or call me. Maybe we could set up a Ppruners focus group?

True. Some of the old editions weren't all that great, and in the 70's they were certainly pretty thin.

But there was excellent writing, and a high level of accuracy. Just to take one example, compare some of the old articles on short-field landings (by Alan Bramson and, I think, Neil Williams) with the rubbish that was published recently.

Alan Bramson's flight tests may have been a bit formulaic, but he'd clearly usually done more than just have a 30 minute jolly with the owner or test pilot, which seems often to be the case nowadays. The flight tests by Bob Grimstead are usually informative, but some of the others are dire. (To be fair, Pilot isn't the only offender here.)

Look back in your archives at the articles by Stephen Wilkinson, Bernard Chabbert (I hear a rumour that he may write for you again? Good news if true), Brian Lecomber, John Templeton Smith (much better at magazine articles than at thrillers), Neil Williams, James Gilbert.... You will have to admit that those "good old days" were better than today, and you may even feel that you could fill a few pages each month by re-printing classic articles from the past! :)

In order not to upset our moderator, can you tell me if the hands on the watch glow in the dark?;)

SSD

I am sure they're great pilots but are there enough of them in the UK to support a printed magazine?

As I often rant on elsewhere, the whole GA scene in the UK is gradually going down the pan. Unless you are happy to see it degenerate to farm strip based operators only (which many people possibly are, having got their PPLs already), it cannot be sustained on the current declining trends. The magazines are still the highest profile pushers in this game (very very tiny % of UK pilots ever read the stuff here) so they ought to lead some sort of modernisation.

Modern planes, modern avionics, modern nav methods...

I am sure that they are sensible and mature enough to decide whether they would like a free watch :}

Pilot's short field landings piece
 

Three postings - haven't counted how many are from the same poster - criticise the short landings article. Just for the record, I edited it, and have operated a Pitts Special, J-3 Cub, Stampe and Tipsy Nipper from a 300-yard hillside strip for the last 18 years in all weathers, so perhaps I do know something about the subject. It was written primarily by James Allan. I showed it to several very experienced pilots for their comments, criticisms and corrections. This was a group effort from aviators with thousands of hours real hands-on experience, and a fine article, not 'rubbish'.

Nick - I remember the article in question. Have to say I thought it was rubbish.

Can I have a watch?

For crying out loud chaps, just rein back will you? This whole thread is becoming ridiculous. Not only is it darting from subject to subject but it also seems to be bringing out the worst in everyone.

Strafer........your comments are pathetic. Nick Bloom wrote what I consider as an excellent article on short field techniques and if you applied some of what he said you wouldn't be requesting what you are in another thread.

The trouble with these forums is it gives everyone the chance to be anonomously vindictive and over "clever". If Pilot wishes to introduce a marketing scheme for its business then who are we to :

a. Criticize

b. Look a gift horse in the mouth.

c. Tell them how to carry out their business.

If you don't want the watch then bloody well give it to someone else. I don't know how many of the vindictive posters on this thread have their own business but I know that if they did, they wouldn't be so damn scathing about what Pilot are doing by making the offer.

If a newby entered this thread he would leave without a trace. Is that what we really want?

I started on this forum about four years ago (admittedly under a different guise) and it was a great place to come to of an evening. Full of friendly people giving helpful and witty advice. It now appears to be nothing but a gallows area for people who say the wrong thing at the wrong time.

I might annoy some for speaking my mind. Quite honestly, I don't give a :mad: .

BRL, can I suggest you freeze this thread before it gets out of hand.

Monocock

Come on
You have had your say and others should have the same opportunity as you. They may be unreasonable, they may be making comments which are based on nothing other than prejudice. Ultimately the public view of a magazine is reflected in its circulation which is reflected in its advertising revenue, which is reflected in whether it goes bust or not. The only thing the posters here appear to have done wrong is to post in a thread which the moderator wishes to keep on the topic of watches and off the topic of magazines.

This subject raises its head every now and again and some posters make worthwhile comments. If it lets off a bit of steam then everyone continues to purchase whichever mag they want what is the problem other than Sam and others getting piXXed off (including me getting in a similar state in the past).

The fact that Nick Blooms piece was criticised then praised only demonstrates that some people can see the value of good advice and others can't. That I am afraid is the way of the world. We all have different knowledge levels and most of us think we know it all. The real experts are those who know that they dont know it all and I firmly put myself in the category of not knowing enough. I don't recall any flying article publishing advice which was as dangerous as the walking magazine which printed a walk which went over a cliff!.

Still haven't seen much about that bloody watch though!. And I can't offer any comments as I was shown one briefly but have since been unable to get my hands on one. Maybe I can convince Sam to lend me one and I will write a review of it here (STRONG HINT).

Monocock

I opened my own business in 1990.

During that time I have never given any type of 'freebie', except for a Christmas card. I trade throughout Europe and the USA and have survived two downturns by understanding what my customers wish to buy and providing it - and listening very carefully to feedback, especially when it hurts and then acting upon it.

Now please tell me what else you know about my business?

Hmmm. I renewed my subscription over a month ago now and still haven't got this legendary watch. Better be worth waiting for, Sam :8 .

I've got a Breitling with incorporated ELB: I am waiting for the donkey to quit so I can at least use it properly. And that is the watch part.

Regarding the mags I first read Pil*t in 1975 and have done so on and off until a couple of years ago when I subscribed. I liked it in the old days and after some unhappy issues last year it is now improving.

I also buy Fl*er when I manage to get hold of it (not easily found at all news agents in Italy).

I think that what is missing in both mags (with a couple of exceptions) are good pilot writers. Pil*t is taking a bigger bashing because of its history and because in the past it had good writers that are probably lacking on the market nowadays.

My one liras worth.

AE