Engine failure @ night (SE)
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Engine failure @ night (SE)
Engine failure @ night (SE)
Apologies if this has been done before, here’s the scenario......200 hour ppl with night qualification, in club aircraft (pa28/172 etc) on a local flight @ night, one friend on board non-pilot. Complete engine failure with no chance of restart @ 4000ft altitude, he knows the area is mainly rural with a large town about 5 miles north and a motorway 2 miles to the east of position. Obviously mainly dark on ground below apart from the odd house and road lit. He is about 25 miles north of airfield but in radio contact with them still, weather is sky clear with 30k+ visibility. What should he do and what would you do! ( answers that include pray and switch the landing light off are not allowed
Please assume that is is in the U.K.
Had this conversation at club very recent and would like the views of one and all, many thanks.
Apologies if this has been done before, here’s the scenario......200 hour ppl with night qualification, in club aircraft (pa28/172 etc) on a local flight @ night, one friend on board non-pilot. Complete engine failure with no chance of restart @ 4000ft altitude, he knows the area is mainly rural with a large town about 5 miles north and a motorway 2 miles to the east of position. Obviously mainly dark on ground below apart from the odd house and road lit. He is about 25 miles north of airfield but in radio contact with them still, weather is sky clear with 30k+ visibility. What should he do and what would you do! ( answers that include pray and switch the landing light off are not allowed
Please assume that is is in the U.K.
Had this conversation at club very recent and would like the views of one and all, many thanks.
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Hmm, is this a trick question? OK, well I'll be the fall guy -- obviously land on motorway with flow of traffic, assuming it's not too congested, relate heroic tale in humble manner to nightly news, sell story to weekend redtop: MY HEROIC DEATH DIVE!
Oh yeah, then have quiet word with mechanic who recently serviced aircraft.
QDM
Oh yeah, then have quiet word with mechanic who recently serviced aircraft.
QDM
Too little information.
Is there a full moon & clear sky? If so it's often possible to see the surface, even enough to have a good shot at doing a PFL as you get closer to the ground. Make sure your cockpit lights are very low or even off though!
Also: Are there any bodies of water lying between you & the moon? These will be visible courtesy of their light reflection. An open body of water can be a reasonable option compared to crashing into trees, buildings or rough ground/hills/mountains.
Are there any airstrips nearby with PAL? If so activating any around may give you the option of a PFL/glide approach.
Similarly, what about a beach withing glide range?
Is there a cloud layer between you & the surface? If so, how much room is there below?
How much traffic is there on roads? Land with the traffic if you can, against if that direction has significantly light traffic.
What is your local knowledge about the area? Is it generally farmland? Ploughed fields? Stock paddocks? Are you familiar with any particular lights that can be used as a landmark to guide you towards a known clear area?
Bear in mind that all these things should be being constantly assessed throughout the flight and not wait for the unhappy moment!
What was your pre-flight planning like? Did you plan a 'good choice' nav route ie one that has reasonable forced landing options?
Having considered (or pre-considered
) all of that, what speed are you using for your glide?
Unless you're gliding to reach a specific place then Vg isn't necessarily the best option. Have you considered minimum sink speed? For typical light piston a/c this is reasonably close to Vx. It will give you more time in the air to plan and mean that you will hit the ground with less energy to expend, in the absence of alternative plans.
Is there a full moon & clear sky? If so it's often possible to see the surface, even enough to have a good shot at doing a PFL as you get closer to the ground. Make sure your cockpit lights are very low or even off though!
Also: Are there any bodies of water lying between you & the moon? These will be visible courtesy of their light reflection. An open body of water can be a reasonable option compared to crashing into trees, buildings or rough ground/hills/mountains.
Are there any airstrips nearby with PAL? If so activating any around may give you the option of a PFL/glide approach.
Similarly, what about a beach withing glide range?
Is there a cloud layer between you & the surface? If so, how much room is there below?
How much traffic is there on roads? Land with the traffic if you can, against if that direction has significantly light traffic.
What is your local knowledge about the area? Is it generally farmland? Ploughed fields? Stock paddocks? Are you familiar with any particular lights that can be used as a landmark to guide you towards a known clear area?
Bear in mind that all these things should be being constantly assessed throughout the flight and not wait for the unhappy moment!
What was your pre-flight planning like? Did you plan a 'good choice' nav route ie one that has reasonable forced landing options?
Having considered (or pre-considered
) all of that, what speed are you using for your glide?Unless you're gliding to reach a specific place then Vg isn't necessarily the best option. Have you considered minimum sink speed? For typical light piston a/c this is reasonably close to Vx. It will give you more time in the air to plan and mean that you will hit the ground with less energy to expend, in the absence of alternative plans.
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HoldPosition
I am sorry but I cannot go along with the land on the road bit.
If you take the risk of flying an SEP at night so be it....your life, your choice. I assume that you have explained the risk to your passenger.
But please don't risk the lives of a coachload of innocent children who have made no such choice. You could cause a multi pile up with many deaths.
Take responsibility for your own risk-taking decisions and try and minimise risk to people on the ground.
Your widow will then have newspaper headlines to be proud of.
W
I am sorry but I cannot go along with the land on the road bit.
If you take the risk of flying an SEP at night so be it....your life, your choice. I assume that you have explained the risk to your passenger.
But please don't risk the lives of a coachload of innocent children who have made no such choice. You could cause a multi pile up with many deaths.
Take responsibility for your own risk-taking decisions and try and minimise risk to people on the ground.
Your widow will then have newspaper headlines to be proud of.
W
Why do it if it's not fun?
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There was a very similar discussion here, although it was quite a long time ago. It went on for a very long time and got quite heated! One of the conclusions, though, was that it would vary certainly depending on the country, and possible the area within the country, particularly with regard to the road option.
For example, the the US there are many very long, straight roads which maybe see a couple of cars a day - they would be good landing sites. On the other hand, the M25 wouldn't. Since the original poster specified the UK, I'd suggest that a road isn't an option - in those parts of the UK where roads are quiet enough to consider, they're usually not straight enough to be worth considering.
FFF
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For example, the the US there are many very long, straight roads which maybe see a couple of cars a day - they would be good landing sites. On the other hand, the M25 wouldn't. Since the original poster specified the UK, I'd suggest that a road isn't an option - in those parts of the UK where roads are quiet enough to consider, they're usually not straight enough to be worth considering.
FFF
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I'd suggest that a road isn't an option - in those parts of the UK where roads are quiet enough to consider, they're usually not straight enough to be worth considering
Ah, the joys of armchair speculation on dangerous circumstances!
QDM
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After the interesting discussions on the "Go-Around after Engine Failure in MEPs" debate, it is good to find myself on the same side of the discussion as the esteemed Mr WCollins.
Certain things we do in SEPs carry a significant risk. Flying above a low cloud base would be one. Flying at night would be another. Unless you are fortunate enough to pick a well-lit night and the right area for the problem to occur in, your best bet is normally reckoned to be to aim at a dark bit. Nobody has yet quoted the bit about turning on your landing light at 200 feet, and if you don't like what you see, turning it off again - It can only be a matter of time
Nobody has yet mentioned the presence of copious lighting standards, fences and power lines close to motorways and main roads. All strong counter-arguments, to the "land on the M1" argument.
Finally, engine failures in pistons are more common than one might hope. A surprisingly large number of these are caused by pilot-related problems.
Add these thoughts together, and a PPL of typical currency in a rented aircraft at night is a bad combination. Fortunately, the average PPL SEP renter does so few night hours in their career that accidents of this sort are still a rarity.
Certain things we do in SEPs carry a significant risk. Flying above a low cloud base would be one. Flying at night would be another. Unless you are fortunate enough to pick a well-lit night and the right area for the problem to occur in, your best bet is normally reckoned to be to aim at a dark bit. Nobody has yet quoted the bit about turning on your landing light at 200 feet, and if you don't like what you see, turning it off again - It can only be a matter of time
Nobody has yet mentioned the presence of copious lighting standards, fences and power lines close to motorways and main roads. All strong counter-arguments, to the "land on the M1" argument.
Finally, engine failures in pistons are more common than one might hope. A surprisingly large number of these are caused by pilot-related problems.
Add these thoughts together, and a PPL of typical currency in a rented aircraft at night is a bad combination. Fortunately, the average PPL SEP renter does so few night hours in their career that accidents of this sort are still a rarity.
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It may not always be possible but the best idea is to try to fly so high as to stand a fair chance of gliding to an airfield. With a GPS you can get directly over an airfield without even being able to see it, or even if above cloud. A route like this is fairly easy if passing at a fair height across central and southern England.
Landing at a closed airfield in the dark is difficult but not impossible and you are less likely to hit wires or building than if you aim for any old field. I have done this myself and found it quite straightforward but the hands do sweat a bit. In the flare you can judge the height well enough to have a (hard) landing if you look out of the side window.
If you are unlucky enough to be flying too far from an airfield (although you do make your own luck to some extent) then I am certain that a well lit area is best. If you land in a controlled manner and then hit something then at least you will be found quickly which is what will make the difference.
Landing at a closed airfield in the dark is difficult but not impossible and you are less likely to hit wires or building than if you aim for any old field. I have done this myself and found it quite straightforward but the hands do sweat a bit. In the flare you can judge the height well enough to have a (hard) landing if you look out of the side window.
If you are unlucky enough to be flying too far from an airfield (although you do make your own luck to some extent) then I am certain that a well lit area is best. If you land in a controlled manner and then hit something then at least you will be found quickly which is what will make the difference.
slightly off-topic but...
I remember my instructor for my multi rating (in the US) told me how he had brought off a forced landing at night in a SE. He had been doing a regular mail run in a PA28 (can't have been many letters!), when he had the engine failure. He put it down in a supermarket carpark, without a scratch. Obviously luck was involved, but no doubt a lot of skill.
Such car parks may not be quite so large in this country, but they are worth a thought - they usually have some lighting.
I remember my instructor for my multi rating (in the US) told me how he had brought off a forced landing at night in a SE. He had been doing a regular mail run in a PA28 (can't have been many letters!), when he had the engine failure. He put it down in a supermarket carpark, without a scratch. Obviously luck was involved, but no doubt a lot of skill.
Such car parks may not be quite so large in this country, but they are worth a thought - they usually have some lighting.
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2donkeys
Reminds me of one of the many words of wisdom in this game "You should fly at night a lot, or not at all".
If the moon is out you can see surprisingly well. If it's dark out there you are pretty much trusting to fate. Kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared, so keep as slow as you safely can. If you hit something, hope it is made of a material that causes the forces to be managable by your flesh and blood. You can survive quite a few g if you do it right.
Reminds me of one of the many words of wisdom in this game "You should fly at night a lot, or not at all".
If the moon is out you can see surprisingly well. If it's dark out there you are pretty much trusting to fate. Kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared, so keep as slow as you safely can. If you hit something, hope it is made of a material that causes the forces to be managable by your flesh and blood. You can survive quite a few g if you do it right.
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I haven't yet done a night rating, and read with interest everyones opinion on this.
I am curious, leaving aside evryones opinion, what is generally the advise received from instructors for this? and do you do any sort of pfl training at night? I know this would be very dangerous at a low level due to unlight obstructions, but surely there is some form of training for it?
Personally getting as low as you can, and if you see trees ahead where you were hoping would be a big field, and you've too little altitude left to do much about it, an intentional stall would seem like a good idea to me. Use up as much energy as possible. Would that be fool hardy?
I am curious, leaving aside evryones opinion, what is generally the advise received from instructors for this? and do you do any sort of pfl training at night? I know this would be very dangerous at a low level due to unlight obstructions, but surely there is some form of training for it?
Personally getting as low as you can, and if you see trees ahead where you were hoping would be a big field, and you've too little altitude left to do much about it, an intentional stall would seem like a good idea to me. Use up as much energy as possible. Would that be fool hardy?
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dublinpilot
The problem with a stall is timing it right, as all you could end up doing is convert a lot of your horizontal speed to vertical speed. These light aircraft are better at handling and dissipating forces in the horizontal direction than the vertical, as is the human body when seated. You also still have horizontal speed in a stall.
There is a theory that if you are over a forest with an engine out, you should stall just above the tree tops and gently drop in. The other theory is that you should aim between two trees just abve the ground and let the wings take the force of impact, dissipating the forces as they get ripped off. Haven't seen many trials to provide any evidence of which is better, but I'd go for the latter. Aiming for flimsy walls is also said to be a good thing, if you can come to zero speed over a few tens of feet you should survive. Put some numbers into those Newtonian equations we all learned for O level physics and you can prove the point theoretically.
The problem with a stall is timing it right, as all you could end up doing is convert a lot of your horizontal speed to vertical speed. These light aircraft are better at handling and dissipating forces in the horizontal direction than the vertical, as is the human body when seated. You also still have horizontal speed in a stall.
There is a theory that if you are over a forest with an engine out, you should stall just above the tree tops and gently drop in. The other theory is that you should aim between two trees just abve the ground and let the wings take the force of impact, dissipating the forces as they get ripped off. Haven't seen many trials to provide any evidence of which is better, but I'd go for the latter. Aiming for flimsy walls is also said to be a good thing, if you can come to zero speed over a few tens of feet you should survive. Put some numbers into those Newtonian equations we all learned for O level physics and you can prove the point theoretically.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Another (type-dependant) problem with stalls is that they can go wrong. Ok, so a PA28 is unlikely to bite you in the stall... but the Europa can be vicious if you don't have enough left rudder to account for the lack of prop-wash.... don't ask me how I know that!
As for what instructors teach... well, I wasn't taught anything. I was flying over suburban metropolitan Phoenix at night at 1000' agl when I did my night qualification, with nowhere to land except for a couple of dark areas that marked parks - not that I'm recommending that, just saying it's what I did. Don't know about instructors other than mine, but I'd guess that if they teach anything, it'll depend on where you're located, as we've already discussed. As for doing PFLs at night, I definitely wouldn't want to do this - don't know if any instructors routinely teach it or not, but I'd be surprised. All it takes is one power line which you didn't see.....
FFF
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As for what instructors teach... well, I wasn't taught anything. I was flying over suburban metropolitan Phoenix at night at 1000' agl when I did my night qualification, with nowhere to land except for a couple of dark areas that marked parks - not that I'm recommending that, just saying it's what I did. Don't know about instructors other than mine, but I'd guess that if they teach anything, it'll depend on where you're located, as we've already discussed. As for doing PFLs at night, I definitely wouldn't want to do this - don't know if any instructors routinely teach it or not, but I'd be surprised. All it takes is one power line which you didn't see.....
FFF
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The only thing to do would be to fly the aircraft all the way to whatever arrival awaits.
If it was me I would probably head for the road like a moth to a candle. As a single should land somewhere about 65-75 mph, I would be pretty much cordinated with any traffic, and hoping not too many heart attacks occour in the cars you have surprised, I would hope a bit of emergency braking would save the night.
That still leaves two problems, if the road is busy the above is out the window, and even if it is not, there are the lamposts, signposts and curves to worry about.
If you have to fly at night perhaps it makes sense to rent a twin for the occasion.
If it was me I would probably head for the road like a moth to a candle. As a single should land somewhere about 65-75 mph, I would be pretty much cordinated with any traffic, and hoping not too many heart attacks occour in the cars you have surprised, I would hope a bit of emergency braking would save the night.
That still leaves two problems, if the road is busy the above is out the window, and even if it is not, there are the lamposts, signposts and curves to worry about.
If you have to fly at night perhaps it makes sense to rent a twin for the occasion.
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Please feel free to discount my opinion as a novice, but I suspect that I would feel inclined to head for a bit of lit road. Whatever the accepted wisdom may be, given a choice between a dark patch where you can't see anything at all and a lit patch where there are obstructions I think I'd head for the light ( ) - at least you might stand a chance of avoiding the obstructions and some choice as to which objects you hit. A plane making a forced landing on the M1 couldn't be much worse than some of the atrocious driving you see on a daily basis...
) - at least you might stand a chance of avoiding the obstructions and some choice as to which objects you hit. A plane making a forced landing on the M1 couldn't be much worse than some of the atrocious driving you see on a daily basis...
I used to teach PFLs at night. I also included glide approaches, flapless, complete electrical failure etc., same as for day.
Who says PFLs have to be taught over a paddock? Nothing wrong with a conveniently lit airfield - especially if there's little or no traffic.
Who says PFLs have to be taught over a paddock? Nothing wrong with a conveniently lit airfield - especially if there's little or no traffic.
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Recently received Night Rating here. We trained in electrical failures, flapless, but no PFL's. Seem to recall it was suggested to land somewhere just outside cities, hoping to get some light yet not too much civilization.
Of course in Oz there's a whole lot of spots where there's no civilization. Aiming for water is another one I've heard. And of course the good old "Aim for black spots"....not a personal favourite.
This is also a novice opinion, but number 1 option is roads for me. I've noticed a fair few roads between cities/townships that are lit up well enough. At the altitudes we fly at for night ops, there's a reasonable chance of gliding towards one of these roads, usually not too busy for the most part of night. Bonus is that touchdown at 45-50kts is below 100kph usual speed limit for these roads, so we won't be overtaking any law abiding citizens, and those cars behind can hopefully notice the flashing and rotating white and red lights on the aircraft somehow...
....perhaps an early line-up with the road to avoid powerlines on the sides, and approaching with a good speed for plenty of time to flatten the approach and give cars a bit of time to spot ya, plus as a safety factor in case you decide to abort and land beside the road at the last minute.
Of course this is all rather inexperienced speculation from a newbie NVFR, and I understand that ground logic and cockpit reality don't always equate. Never really thought that much about it before this. Always assumed it would be a no-hoper situation, and a risk you'd just have to take as part of flying. Ignorance is bliss :-)
Of course in Oz there's a whole lot of spots where there's no civilization. Aiming for water is another one I've heard. And of course the good old "Aim for black spots"....not a personal favourite.
This is also a novice opinion, but number 1 option is roads for me. I've noticed a fair few roads between cities/townships that are lit up well enough. At the altitudes we fly at for night ops, there's a reasonable chance of gliding towards one of these roads, usually not too busy for the most part of night. Bonus is that touchdown at 45-50kts is below 100kph usual speed limit for these roads, so we won't be overtaking any law abiding citizens, and those cars behind can hopefully notice the flashing and rotating white and red lights on the aircraft somehow...
....perhaps an early line-up with the road to avoid powerlines on the sides, and approaching with a good speed for plenty of time to flatten the approach and give cars a bit of time to spot ya, plus as a safety factor in case you decide to abort and land beside the road at the last minute.
Of course this is all rather inexperienced speculation from a newbie NVFR, and I understand that ground logic and cockpit reality don't always equate. Never really thought that much about it before this. Always assumed it would be a no-hoper situation, and a risk you'd just have to take as part of flying. Ignorance is bliss :-)
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For those of you who have qualified your speculation by saying that yuo are inexperienced, I'd like to point out that almost all of us are unexperienced at engine failures at night (luckily) regardless of how experienced we might be at flying with the engine running.
I think that your speculation is just as valid as anyone elses - and none of it is particularly valid without an experience to back it up.
I think that your speculation is just as valid as anyone elses - and none of it is particularly valid without an experience to back it up.