Overflying airfields
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Mike,
I had something come up recently when receiving VFR radar services from PHX approach, a class B facility with several class D airfields below it.
I was cleared into the class B but at an altitude corresponding to the base of one of the wedding cakes. 100ft or so (no charts on me here) below me was IWA class D, I was heading for FFZ (Class D) which almost touches the IWA class D, and normally when heading for FFZ from that direction I would be at an altitude which would require me to traverse the IWA class D, with appropriate communication with IWA tower.
Clear as mud so far??
When midfield above the IWA class D, PHX approach said something to the effect of 'Flight following cancelled, sqwark VFR, descend at pilots discretion'. So I was in class B, yet the controller had essentially told me I was 'on my own', was sqwarking VFR, had not communicated with the Class D tower below, but approach had essentially told me it was fine to descend at my discretion - this would take me into the class D below if I was to make a sensible descent towards FFZ.
Now FAR 91.129 says
So as PHX approach is not the controlling agency over the class D, and they had cancelled flight following, and I was VFR anyway, am I going to get asked to make a phone call if I descended into the class D? Should I have stayed in the Class B until clear of the class D below, which would have caused problems with communicating and getting into the FFZ class D.
And from experience I know IWA tower are more than happy to ask (allegedly
) errant pilots to call them for a pep-talk 
I should know this of course, but don't, and never did call PHX approach to ask them what they would like me to do and where I would stand. As it happened I descended into the very thin gap between B and D and took a non direct route to FFZ, but am still interested to know whether I would have been legal to descend into the D if B and D touched. I think not, but I'm not the ATC procedure expert.
I had something come up recently when receiving VFR radar services from PHX approach, a class B facility with several class D airfields below it.
I was cleared into the class B but at an altitude corresponding to the base of one of the wedding cakes. 100ft or so (no charts on me here) below me was IWA class D, I was heading for FFZ (Class D) which almost touches the IWA class D, and normally when heading for FFZ from that direction I would be at an altitude which would require me to traverse the IWA class D, with appropriate communication with IWA tower.
Clear as mud so far??
When midfield above the IWA class D, PHX approach said something to the effect of 'Flight following cancelled, sqwark VFR, descend at pilots discretion'. So I was in class B, yet the controller had essentially told me I was 'on my own', was sqwarking VFR, had not communicated with the Class D tower below, but approach had essentially told me it was fine to descend at my discretion - this would take me into the class D below if I was to make a sensible descent towards FFZ.
Now FAR 91.129 says
Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace
And from experience I know IWA tower are more than happy to ask (allegedly
) errant pilots to call them for a pep-talk I should know this of course, but don't, and never did call PHX approach to ask them what they would like me to do and where I would stand. As it happened I descended into the very thin gap between B and D and took a non direct route to FFZ, but am still interested to know whether I would have been legal to descend into the D if B and D touched. I think not, but I'm not the ATC procedure expert.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
slim_slag,
In the situation you described (I wish I had my Phoenix charts to hand so I could understand it a bit better, but I think I get it...) I'd ask for clarification. It's always possible the guys at Phoenix made a mistake.
I was once approaching Phoenix from the north, just above one of the class D zones. I requested a VFR transition, reported my position as overhead whichever airport it was that I was overhead, and was given a squawk. I was then immediately told to descend to an altitude which would have taken me into the class D. I'd already instinctively cut the power and started to descend before I realised the problem, asked for clarification, and the controller apologized and told me to maintain current altitude, before telling me to descend a couple of miles later - still well in time to be level at the cleared altitude before entering class B. Even controllers are human!
FFF
--------------------
In the situation you described (I wish I had my Phoenix charts to hand so I could understand it a bit better, but I think I get it...) I'd ask for clarification. It's always possible the guys at Phoenix made a mistake.
I was once approaching Phoenix from the north, just above one of the class D zones. I requested a VFR transition, reported my position as overhead whichever airport it was that I was overhead, and was given a squawk. I was then immediately told to descend to an altitude which would have taken me into the class D. I'd already instinctively cut the power and started to descend before I realised the problem, asked for clarification, and the controller apologized and told me to maintain current altitude, before telling me to descend a couple of miles later - still well in time to be level at the cleared altitude before entering class B. Even controllers are human!
FFF
--------------------
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
From: Daventry UK
Fellow aviators
You might be interested to know that you can view the Phoenix chart (or any other US sectional) at http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/
for free.
I don't know how up to date the charts are, though.
You might be interested to know that you can view the Phoenix chart (or any other US sectional) at http://mapserver.maptech.com/homepage/
for free.
I don't know how up to date the charts are, though.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,981
Likes: 0
From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Thankyou FFF, I called around today, and you would appear to be correct in your assumption. PHX approach are very friendly to us round here, always happy to help and provide excellent service.
I suspect you are talking about Deer Valley, good job you caught yourself before busting their airspace, they also like to pass phone numbers to you over the airwaves
Several years ago I had a similar type of experience in that area while flying south from a slap up breakfast in Sedona via the PHX transition. Talking to PHX approach from a good 40 miles out, but the controller did not have radar contact which was confusing him and he was constantly asking me my position and altitude. Turned out I had dialled in the incorrect altimeter setting and I was a little low, good job I caught it or else I would have busted DVT Class D quite nicely. Shows how easy it is to make a simple mistake which can cause a lot of problems.
More recently I was coming back the same way and PHX told me my mode C was reading 41000 ft!!! PHX didn't care, they just told me to say my altitude, made me promise to fix the transponder when I got back, and cleared me into the class B via the VFR transition.
A bit chilly this morning in PHX when flying at 7:30 am, had to wear a jacket in the open cockpit plane! Also had to be aware of the Class B above me when in the climb, that must be the first time in many months year I got over 1000ft per minute out of a 180hp beast with no thermal involvement. At last we are getting cool and smooth air, very nice!
Cheers
I suspect you are talking about Deer Valley, good job you caught yourself before busting their airspace, they also like to pass phone numbers to you over the airwaves
Several years ago I had a similar type of experience in that area while flying south from a slap up breakfast in Sedona via the PHX transition. Talking to PHX approach from a good 40 miles out, but the controller did not have radar contact which was confusing him and he was constantly asking me my position and altitude. Turned out I had dialled in the incorrect altimeter setting and I was a little low, good job I caught it or else I would have busted DVT Class D quite nicely. Shows how easy it is to make a simple mistake which can cause a lot of problems.
More recently I was coming back the same way and PHX told me my mode C was reading 41000 ft!!! PHX didn't care, they just told me to say my altitude, made me promise to fix the transponder when I got back, and cleared me into the class B via the VFR transition.
A bit chilly this morning in PHX when flying at 7:30 am, had to wear a jacket in the open cockpit plane! Also had to be aware of the Class B above me when in the climb, that must be the first time in many months year I got over 1000ft per minute out of a 180hp beast with no thermal involvement. At last we are getting cool and smooth air, very nice!
Cheers
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
From: london uk
I cant believe that you all seem to have differing ideas as to what the answer to a standard procedure is!!!!
firstly if you are on thames radar then overflying any field in there control area would almost certainly mean entering the london tma!! as it has a base of 2500ft for most of their coverage.Switching one box to another without informing the radar controller could lead to dire consequences!Dont do that!!
and i would have thought the correct trx initially would be "thames radar, request change to stapleford on 122.25" and in my experience the controller would probably have asked if you were intending to call them in plenty of time anyway!as he can see where your present track will lead you in a few minutes time!! What puzzles me though is why you would need to ask this question if you are the holder of a ppl and if you have forgotten in the passage of time,then why not go for a check ride with your instructor and log the hour you need for the once a year rule???
Safe and pleasant flying to all!
firstly if you are on thames radar then overflying any field in there control area would almost certainly mean entering the london tma!! as it has a base of 2500ft for most of their coverage.Switching one box to another without informing the radar controller could lead to dire consequences!Dont do that!!
and i would have thought the correct trx initially would be "thames radar, request change to stapleford on 122.25" and in my experience the controller would probably have asked if you were intending to call them in plenty of time anyway!as he can see where your present track will lead you in a few minutes time!! What puzzles me though is why you would need to ask this question if you are the holder of a ppl and if you have forgotten in the passage of time,then why not go for a check ride with your instructor and log the hour you need for the once a year rule???
Safe and pleasant flying to all!
