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Old 19th Mar 2021, 23:53
  #61 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Coast Canada
Posts: 4,028
Still waiting for somebody to find an accident where the cabin door on a certified light aircraft, opened on takeoff and then detached and hit the airplane.

Instructors have a duty to teach appropriate responses to realistic threats. The door coming off the airplane during the takeoff and hitting the aircraft which then renders it uncontrolable is I guess theoretically possible, but it is not a realistic threat. The message to students for the open door scenario should be;

- don't panic as it is not likely to present an imminent threat,
- maintain control of the aircraft
- If sufficient runway remains to come to a stop with normal braking, then do that and exit the runway to fix the issue with the door. Make the required radio calls as appropriate but not at the expense of aircraft control
- If any doubt exist as to remaining runway, then do not attempt to close the door, continue the takeoff, fly a circuit, land and fix the issue with the door.

There is enough made up nonsense in flight training already, we don't need more ....
Big Pistons Forever is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2021, 10:01
  #62 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 460
I totally agree. However where should the decision point be? A technique that I have taught for many years: 2/3rds of the take off speed by 1/3rd of runway. This allows a further third for the abort and another third to reduce to taxi speed. I've found this to work, whatever the runway length, for all light aeroplanes that I have flown. NEVER,NEVER "hit" the brakes, commonly said, because this will result in a very high risk of a loss of control.

The abort for single engine aeroplanes is rarely taught, in the UK at least, although an important element of the PPL syllabus.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 20th Mar 2021, 17:56
  #63 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Coast Canada
Posts: 4,028
A go no go check point should be used on every takeoff as low engine power, dragging brakes or other factors may retard the aircraft acceleration sufficiently to affect flight safety. I also teach the 2/3 at 1/3 as a general rule of thumb with the understanding that it may need to be modified for short fields

It is also important to note that the aircraft has to keep accelerating. I remember one takeoff on a muddy grass where I made the 2/3 speed in the first third of the runway but the aircraft absolutely refused to accelerate any further after that.
Big Pistons Forever is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2021, 09:03
  #64 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 787
Rejected take off is a required item on an SEP (Land) LPC.
MrAverage is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2021, 10:22
  #65 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 460
MrAverage - Do you have a reference for that?
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2021, 13:52
  #66 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 76
Sect 5 Item 1 on the SRG1157 schedule is a start, or rather a stop.
LastStandards is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2021, 14:46
  #67 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 460
5.1 - Rejected take-off at a reasonable speed - M

But this doesn't do it. What is a reasonable speed? It should be in the context of a true abort situation, when the aircraft is very light on the ground and the handling required is completely different.? The student will have demonstrated nothing of value regarding a take off if it is not done at or just before the actual lift off speed. For High Performance and Multi-engine types this is specified to be done at V1.

Whilst the aircraft is very light at V1 the aircraft can be considered floating: braking hard may cause a complete loss of control, as if on ice, with a high chance of leaving the runway, if the nose is pushed down the aeroplane becomes quite simply a wheelbarrow. both of these ills are taught by many instructors in briefing. These errors are not taught in my experience by high performance and multi-engine aeroplane.instructors in their briefing or in flight. If they bother that is to teach aborts on SEPL aeroplanes.
Fl1ingfrog is offline  
Old 21st Mar 2021, 15:24
  #68 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 4,865
Though thread drift, if you have to abort a takeoff, aerodynamic braking is your friend. Save the wheel brakes, until you can feel that there is weight on the wheels. If you're doing something silly, like forcing the nose down, don't touch the brakes until you stop doing that, on either a tricycle, or a taildragger. I like to see the pitch control moved smoothly to full nose up, as soon as speed decreases to allow this. This will afford you the most aerodynamic braking, it'll remind you that you're still flying (you're not just driving), so you'll continue to fly the plane in all axis as it slows, and you won't be sliding and flat spotting tires. Aerodynamic braking has no cost, brakes and tires are expensive, as is sliding off the runway, because you stopped flying a moving plane!
Pilot DAR is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2021, 12:39
  #69 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: with bosun Blue Sky and the jenny haniver "Hot Stuff"
Posts: 93
When all is said and done, absolutely agreed, Pilot DAR and BPF. Your posts are always shrewd, informed, and eloquent, and I enjoy learning from you.

I love PPRuNe. (Completely off topic: My only regret is the loss of good-old bad-old days Jet Blast. (Un) fortunately we live in less innocent times, and the Internet is no longer the Wild West )

And now, back to the usual programme!
Capn Bug Smasher is offline  
Old 22nd Mar 2021, 15:09
  #70 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 975
During my instructor rating in a C-152 I seem to remember flying a whole circuit using the doors to turn the aircraft. I think the instructor was bored that day.
As a bored instructor I once got a student to use seat position / lean forwards and backwards instead of trimming in a 152. Works quite well if you both do it.
Booglebox is offline  

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