UK NDB only timed approaches
But was there any plan B on any NDB approach if/when the NDB should fail?
The ADF was so named because it dispensed with the controller pilot interaction and therefore was considered 'automatic'. Both methods were usually available at a ATC aerodrome.
In the UK at least the fallback for GNSS is intended to be twofold. a network of VOR/DME stations and a network of DME stations. The first is already in place, it's a subset of the original VOR/DME network, and is intended to support RNAV5. The latter is not yet in place, the UK has plenty of DMEs but they are concentrated in the South and not spread evenly across the country, but will support RNAV1. The limitation for most users is going to be suitable equipment in the aircraft. Multi constellation is likely to be much cheaper and more widely available, even my mobile phone can do that, than boxes which do DME/DME.
G
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I have fond memories of demonstrating an NDB approach / hold into the BBC longwave radio transmitter at Droitwich (I think... ?) for my IMC rating. You could just about get 198 longwave with 200 on the ADF 
I remember the controllers at Birmingham getting itchy as we hurtled around and around on the edge of their playground.
A summer or two before, I did a bit of work experience in light aircraft maintenance at Liverpool and one of the mechanics lamented the retirement of a colleague who could get the BBC on the aircraft radio while they worked on the ship. When that colleague left the knowledge left with him. I remember trying to work out how it was done. I was flummoxed until I did that IMC test... great stuff.
Hard to believe that was a decade ago, wow.
I remember the controllers at Birmingham getting itchy as we hurtled around and around on the edge of their playground.A summer or two before, I did a bit of work experience in light aircraft maintenance at Liverpool and one of the mechanics lamented the retirement of a colleague who could get the BBC on the aircraft radio while they worked on the ship. When that colleague left the knowledge left with him. I remember trying to work out how it was done. I was flummoxed until I did that IMC test... great stuff.
Hard to believe that was a decade ago, wow.
If you go back a couple more decades or so, to when I started teaching the IMC rating it was even easier, as the Droitwich frequency was 200 kHz which made it a really useful training aid for ADF tracking exercises. It was changed in 1988 to the current 198 kHz which made it harder with “modern” ADF receivers, as you could still get them to point at it but couldn’t really make out the speech so well so harder to “ident”....
The last NDB approach I did for real in IMC without some sort of GPS to provide final approach track guidance was in 1994. Using GPS even if it was “unofficially” always resulted in the flight path of the airplane being aligned with the runway, so I basically ignored the ADF needle.
The last use of the ADF went away when the good rock and roll stations went to FM or satellite. The NDB is 90 year old technology and is long overdue for the dustbin of old crappy nav aids like the radio range. Good riddance !
The last use of the ADF went away when the good rock and roll stations went to FM or satellite. The NDB is 90 year old technology and is long overdue for the dustbin of old crappy nav aids like the radio range. Good riddance !
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Well at least it’s a slight improvement on Decca..... Thankfully that’s gone as far as my part of aviation is concerned. Using a system designed for a ship doing ten knots for IMC flight at 140 kts was ridiculous.
Re NDBs en-route, a lovely story of a friend who got his first Jet job on the 727 not that long after getting his IR. Trogging North back to the UK past Portugal as PNF, they got an en-route Hold thrown at them based on an NDB. A Training Captain was PF and so suggested that this would be a good chance for his P2 to demonstrate an NDB Hold. Friend staggered and lurched a few times round the Hold dragging his 100 or so pax along in loose formation behind him before, thankfully, onward Clearance came through and, with much relief he re-established, arrow-like, outbound en route.
With a feel of impending, career-limiting, doom, he handed back to the TC while rapidly considering (a) how up to date his CV was and, (b), if he knew of any leads going in other airlines (any would do!) as he felt sure he was about to be hung out to dry by the TC. The TC turned to him after a short, but ominous, pause and said "Mmmmm, not bad, not bad ....... all I can say is ................ thank God you flew that - I wouldn't have known where to start! I just thought you, having just done your IR, would be best placed to fly that! Very well done!!!!!".
Sums NDB's up really!!!!
Last edited by Hot 'n' High; 24th Nov 2020 at 15:20.
With a feel of impending, career-limiting, doom, he handed back to the TC while rapidly considering (a) how up to date his CV was and, (b), if he knew of any leads going in other airlines (any would do!) as he felt sure he was about to be hung out to dry by the TC. The TC turned to him after a short, but ominous, pause and said "Mmmmm, not bad, not bad ....... all I can say is ................ thank God you flew that - I wouldn't have known where to start! I just thought you, having just done your IR, would be best placed to fly that! Very well done!!!!!".
Reminds me of taking my instructor initial skill test out of a somewhat unfamiliar airfield. Five minutes after take-off I realised that I had lost positional awareness. So I turned to my examiner, who was pretending to be my student at that point "So Bloggs, can you tell me where we are right now?", he went into a textbook description of nearby roads and towns and told me exactly where I was, "Well done Bloggs, now onto the first exercise"....
G
Reminds me of taking my instructor initial skill test out of a somewhat unfamiliar airfield. Five minutes after take-off I realised that I had lost positional awareness. So I turned to my examiner, who was pretending to be my student at that point "So Bloggs, can you tell me where we are right now?", he went into a textbook description of nearby roads and towns and told me exactly where I was, "Well done Bloggs, now onto the first exercise"....
G
G
My CPL GFT also took place from an "unfamiliar airfield". I rang the Examiner, as briefed if he had been delayed and not got in by a certain time, to get the route from him. But that revealed a small snagette.
I was booked into the Flypro to fly the GFT from airfield "A". The route he gave me started at airfield "B" some 70+ miles away and which I'd never even been near let alone to. But that was where he was waiting for me to pitch up, complete with an A/C, to do my Planning followed by the Flight!
The reason I'd never been there is mainly as it was behind a wall of impenetrable CAS ...... policed by fire-breathing ATCOs with an endless supply of MOR forms ..... and which was renowned as "Infringement City" - so the very careful dog-leg required added maybe 20+ miles to the above! No pressure there then!!!
The Ops guys at "A" did a great job springing my A/C early so I could fly at Vne (+ some!) to where my Examiner was waiting. Fortunately, I arrived in time to do my second Route Plan of the day and it all worked out OK .... the ATCO-dragons had continued to sleep soundly as I whizzed past their lair! But I was rather relieved the Examiner didn't ask for the paperwork to do with the first flight tho!
Happy daze!!!! H 'n' H
Last edited by Hot 'n' High; 26th Nov 2020 at 09:36. Reason: Do I get a prize for thread-creep? ;-)
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But yes, there are better alternatives now.... until the Kessler Syndrome hits us at least...
Seriously tho, you are correct re ILS. What intrigues me is was MLS used much/at all? Seems they had MLS at LHR up until 2017. The Mil have used MLS quite a bit but not sure what civvie uptake there was. I never came across it outside the Mil. I guess, if only a few airlines equiped their aircraft with it (I think BA equiped some of their SH Fleets with it), then the benefits of MLS would have been negated as, particularly at busy fields with a queue down the ILS, you'd have a mix of MLS and ILS traffic so would have to go for the lowest common denominator (ILS) to make sequencing easier. I guess it would be harder to utilise the benefits promised by the MLS on mixed ILS/MLS arrivals - if that were even possible. Dunno!
We had MLS on the BA Airbus fleet and it was a total waste of money. It worked perfectly but, as you said, we were never able to take advantage of the benefits of reduced spacing because we were never allocated a discrete runway and therefore had to share with ILS traffic.
We had MLS on the BA Airbus fleet and it was a total waste of money. It worked perfectly but, as you said, we were never able to take advantage of the benefits of reduced spacing because we were never allocated a discrete runway and therefore had to share with ILS traffic.
