A couple of VFR CAS questions for a new PPL holder
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A couple of VFR CAS questions for a new PPL holder
Hi all,
I've just recently received my shiny new private pilot's licence and with that I am looking to learn new things, increase my flying knowledge and venture further afield. One area in particular I want to focus on is improving my RT and understanding of who to talk to when and what to ask for.
During my PPL training (in Scotland) the only controlled airspace I have flown through (other than a MATZ) was the Edinburgh CTR once - I think this was essentially a tick-box exercise for the PPL syllabus. CAS was something we really didn't look at much considering the location I trained at is situated in Class G. On the two occasions I flew into the CTR, I requested a zone transit, got the standard "cleared to enter zone not above 2000" response from the controller and everything was very straight forward. I then left the CTR and headed towards Cumbernauld at 2500 remaining UNDER the EDI/GLA CTAs, so as not to infringe them.
This brings me to my first question - what would be the correct request if I wanted to enter and transit the CTA (not the CTR) from class G, rather than always being confined to flying underneath the zone? Obviously there is always the possibility of being refused entry but in a perfect world, what would the initial call from Class G look like whilst heading towards the CTA? Is it the same format: ie "G-ABCD request zone transit" and then providing route, or is there a different terminology for a CTA transit vs CTR.
Second question is, obviously I am aware that a clearance is not required to enter Class E, however anything I read states it is advisable to contact the ATS for that zone as a courtesy to alert them of your presence. What exactly is the best way to go about this? Again, using the Class E airspace above Dunblane/Stirling for example, is it ample to request a basic service from Glasgow, advise them of your routing and then enter the Class E without explicitly requesting permission, or would it be considered "correct" to request some kind of Class E transit (similar to requesting a MATZ penetration despite no obligation to do so)?
I may have my licence but the real learning has only just begun!
I've just recently received my shiny new private pilot's licence and with that I am looking to learn new things, increase my flying knowledge and venture further afield. One area in particular I want to focus on is improving my RT and understanding of who to talk to when and what to ask for.
During my PPL training (in Scotland) the only controlled airspace I have flown through (other than a MATZ) was the Edinburgh CTR once - I think this was essentially a tick-box exercise for the PPL syllabus. CAS was something we really didn't look at much considering the location I trained at is situated in Class G. On the two occasions I flew into the CTR, I requested a zone transit, got the standard "cleared to enter zone not above 2000" response from the controller and everything was very straight forward. I then left the CTR and headed towards Cumbernauld at 2500 remaining UNDER the EDI/GLA CTAs, so as not to infringe them.
This brings me to my first question - what would be the correct request if I wanted to enter and transit the CTA (not the CTR) from class G, rather than always being confined to flying underneath the zone? Obviously there is always the possibility of being refused entry but in a perfect world, what would the initial call from Class G look like whilst heading towards the CTA? Is it the same format: ie "G-ABCD request zone transit" and then providing route, or is there a different terminology for a CTA transit vs CTR.
Second question is, obviously I am aware that a clearance is not required to enter Class E, however anything I read states it is advisable to contact the ATS for that zone as a courtesy to alert them of your presence. What exactly is the best way to go about this? Again, using the Class E airspace above Dunblane/Stirling for example, is it ample to request a basic service from Glasgow, advise them of your routing and then enter the Class E without explicitly requesting permission, or would it be considered "correct" to request some kind of Class E transit (similar to requesting a MATZ penetration despite no obligation to do so)?
I may have my licence but the real learning has only just begun!
Last edited by thelowflyer; 19th Oct 2020 at 17:04.
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First of all, Congratulations! 
You now have a licence to spend lots of your hard earned cash on aircraft and become poor.
And to answer your questions. Yes, it's just the same initial 'request zone transit' call.
Just make sure you are familiar with the VRPs, as they may request you take a different route from your preferred one.
Also for that class E north of Glasgow.
Both Edinburgh and Glasgow have listening squawks, 2620 and 0440 respectively, so I'd probably just dial in the frequency and squawk for whoever I'm closest to and listen out, unless I specifically wanted something from them.
Happy Flying!
You now have a licence to spend lots of your hard earned cash on aircraft and become poor.
And to answer your questions. Yes, it's just the same initial 'request zone transit' call.
Just make sure you are familiar with the VRPs, as they may request you take a different route from your preferred one.
Also for that class E north of Glasgow.
Both Edinburgh and Glasgow have listening squawks, 2620 and 0440 respectively, so I'd probably just dial in the frequency and squawk for whoever I'm closest to and listen out, unless I specifically wanted something from them.
Happy Flying!
Moderator
Congratulations LowFlyer!
(Don't fly too low thought, there are hazards down there!) In the mean time, relative to your specific question, I have no idea, as I'm not a UK based pilot. But, that leads to another answer for you:
Sure, ask here, and get lots of wisdom. But also, if in doubt while you're flying, it's okay to ask ATC in advance, if they're not too busy. Though I have not flown much in the UK, I have flown all over North America, and from Scandinavia to the Mediterranean. There are differences in airspace and local practice, and even things you know will change over time. Yes, do your flight planning, and gather as much information as you're able before you depart, but if you need to, as ATC, they're there to help! Just ask in time that if you shouldn't enter the airspace, you haven't yet!
(Don't fly too low thought, there are hazards down there!) In the mean time, relative to your specific question, I have no idea, as I'm not a UK based pilot. But, that leads to another answer for you:
Sure, ask here, and get lots of wisdom. But also, if in doubt while you're flying, it's okay to ask ATC in advance, if they're not too busy. Though I have not flown much in the UK, I have flown all over North America, and from Scandinavia to the Mediterranean. There are differences in airspace and local practice, and even things you know will change over time. Yes, do your flight planning, and gather as much information as you're able before you depart, but if you need to, as ATC, they're there to help! Just ask in time that if you shouldn't enter the airspace, you haven't yet!
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asyncio - thanks for clearing that up for me. You certainly learn the skills you need to stay safe in the air but obviously the PPL course cannot exhaustively teach you every different scenario you may encounter, and it's the little things like those in my questions that i'm trying to educate myself on at the moment! I think the training itself has already made me poor but I'm a sucker for pain and I will continue to throw it away on hours in the sky haha!
Pilot DAR - thanks to you too! Some great advice there. All of the FISOs/ATCOs I have spoken to so far have been extremely friendly and helpful, so that is great advice for me and any new pilots. As for your last comment, I absolutely dread the thought of hearing "I have a number for you to call" which alone I think is enough to keep me from straying inadvertantly into CAS!!
Cheers!
Pilot DAR - thanks to you too! Some great advice there. All of the FISOs/ATCOs I have spoken to so far have been extremely friendly and helpful, so that is great advice for me and any new pilots. As for your last comment, I absolutely dread the thought of hearing "I have a number for you to call" which alone I think is enough to keep me from straying inadvertantly into CAS!!
Cheers!
Moderator
Perhaps it's time for one of my many stories, this one about airspace....I was 15 years old (so 1976), and the guest of a very generous owner pilot, who had taken me along for the mid winter trip to Florida in his C150. We were on our way back, at night, over the mountains of western Maryland. The many errors in this plan were not yet apparent to an enthusiast with so little experience as I had. We were tracking a VOR route north. DME? No! (it was a 150!), and decades before GPS. We tracked along the VOR's for a couple of hours, one to the next, as we could receive them - error one, not confirming passing, and noting the time. I thought I had our location figured out, and landing in Hamilton was our best plan, my host seemed content to go along. I could see the lights of the cities through the very thin clouds, and I figured that the form of no light, which was Lake Ontario, had me all oriented. Not quite, we weren't as far along the route of VORs as we thought.....
We called up Hamilton tower, asked for clearance to enter, and informed him of our intention to land. As it was now the middle of the night, and all wise Cessna pilots were safely tucked in their beds, we had the place to ourselves, and were cleared to land with little interest from Hamilton tower. So we started decsent. We broke through a very thin layer of cloud, and lined things up. It was a very clear night, so once below the thin layer, everything was easy to see. Sure enough, a beautiful well lit, albeit a bit snowy, runway lay ahead. We reported the runway in sight to Hamilton tower, approached straight in from many miles back, and landed. Somewhere between the time my host landed, and slowing down, I had this uneasy feeling and looked back, out the now very useful Cessna 150 back window.
To my tremendous alarm, I saw a Boeing 737, who had landed behind us, and was catching up really fast! I instructed my host to turn off the runway. He told me that we were not yet at the taxiway. What ever I said next convinced him that was of very minor importance at this moment! My next recollection was that of a Boeing 737 wingtip passing remarkably close to us, as we crowded the left snowbank, and rolled to a stop. I also was keenly aware of the incredible amount of snow which is thrown up by the Boeing’s engines hard in reverse. There was no collision.
Now, what had just happened there? We looked over at the tower, and saw a red light. It did not flash or anything, it just stayed on – for minutes! So, we just stayed where we were. The Boeing left the scene. After some time, a yellow pickup truck drove up to us, on the door was written “Buffalo Airport Authority”. Things made a lot more sense now! We were told to follow him to the FBO. We did.
When we parked. The driver told us, that the tower would like a phone call from the pilot. Once inside, my host made the call. It did not go well at all. He was being melted by an angry air traffic controller. Whatever transpired, resulted in my host handing the phone to me. The stern voice told me “Do you understand that your friend is in a lot of trouble?”, “Yes” I replied. A few questions in, we got to the “How old are you son?” part. I reported my age. The controller ranted on for a while. Occasionally he asked my thoughts, as though they had any value in this situation. Along the course of the call, feeling a little put upon, I asked the question which had been growing in my mind: “We were squawking 1200, mode C the whole time, and were getting a return, did you not see us on radar as we approached straight in for many miles from the south?”. Well, that created a long pause….
He said “Put your friend back on the phone.” I complied. Whatever he said to my host then went not much farther than satisfying himself that we would not be flying again that night. Uh, No! The phone call ended. My host was completely perplexed at this point. We went to a hotel. Nothing more was ever said to us. We took off the next day as though nothing had happened. This was decades before TCAS, so the Boeing pilot, who was doing an instrument approach, would have completely relied on the controller for traffic separation. I suspect that the controller on radar that night was not as focused as they should have been....
Since then, I have learned, that it's always better to ask ATC, if you have any doubts (particularly, where you are!)....
Okay, that reminds me of another story, and I have my book open anyway....
One clear winter day, I was up bimbling around in the 182. I heard one of the flying club’s 172’s on the radio, the pilot sounded panicked. He was asking for help. He said he was disoriented and lost – it was a clear winter day. I knew the guy on the radio at the club, and knew that there was little he could do to assist this pilot, both from a resources and experience perspective. So, I came on the club frequency, and offered to help – offer accepted.
I had the panicked pilot change to a less busy frequency, and he met me there. I wanted to get to the heart of the problem quickly, so a few questions: “Are you upright?”, “Yes.”, Is the engine running okay?”, “Yes”, how much fuel do you have?”, “Just under half tanks.”, How long have you been flying?”, “About an hour.”, Can you climb and maintain level flight for a few minutes?”. “Yes.”
Okay, so the lost pilot was still lost, and could be 100 miles from me, but was not in immanent danger, and seemed much calmer for talking to me. So, as it was a clear winter day, and the visibility was probably 150 miles, I directed his attention to four prominent white plumes of smoke from a west Toronto power plant. Colloquially, they were “the four stacks” and a common VFR reporting point. Happily, today, visible for more than 100 miles. “Can you see the four plumes of white smoke?”, “Yes.”, “Please turn so you’re pointed at them, and tell me your heading….”, “150 degrees.”, “Okay, give me a rough guess as to how far you are from them…”, “40 miles.”.
So, that put him just on the north side of Toronto International Airport, and the approach path to runway 15 there. Perhaps YYZ ATC was tearing their hair out wondering who had blundered into the approach path…. “Stand by on this frequency, I’ll be right back to you…”, “Okay”. I call Toronto radar: “Toronto Radar, this is C 182 C-GNNQ, I’m north east of you 30 miles, squawking 1200, trying to help a lost pilot. He may be in the approach path to 15, do you have unreported traffic there?”. “Negative NNQ. Bring him to this frequency, and I’ll help you find him.”. So, I got back to the wayward pilot, and got us all on 119.3. Radar instructed him to fly the triangle. After a couple of minutes, Radar called me, and said he was located, and would vector me to him. He was instructed to be at 2000 feet, and I was vectored to him at 2500. As I approached, Radar said I was a mile back of him. “There’s no one down there”, I reported. “You’ve just passed behind him” Radar reported. I still did not see him…. A happened to look up, and there was a 172 a thousand or so above me. “I’ve got him, I told Radar”. As I said that, I saw the 172 change heading directly toward another area airport. Hmmm, now he flies a straight line! So I put on the power, and climbed up along side him, as he maintained a perfect heading toward the Toronto Island Airport. I came along side, and recognized the plane of another flying club – not the plane I was looking for at all. Perhaps he did not think that I was flying a plane which could catch up to him when he bolted! I reported to Radar that it was the wrong plane. About now, our lost pilot started sounding panicky again… “I’m low on fuel, and I see a runway”. Without missing beat, Radar replied: “Land on it". When you’re safely down, phone me at…..”. With this, I could be of no further assistance. I provided the registration of the 172 which had been flying triangles, copying the instructions of Radar, meant for my pilot. Radar confirmed that they were not taking to this plane – I bet that they would be!
So, I headed back toward home. Along the way, Radar calls me: “Wanna know where he landed?”. “Yes, I do!”, “Downsview”, an airport in north central Toronto, surrounded by major highways, thousands of buildings, and of course all of the manufacturing facilities of deHavilland Canada. ‘Not open to civil traffic, but… any port in a storm, I guess. I suppose that the copy cat pilot’s triangles were noticeably better than those of my lost pilot, as he’d been triangling for a half hour or so just east of YYZ, and gone un noticed. I was asked to fly an instructor and some gas down to Donwsview to recover the lost pilot, which was happily otherwise uneventful. I’m sure that the pilot of the other 172 got a talking to!
So, triangles do work on radar, and should be employed if you feel you need help from radar, and have no other means of contact.
We called up Hamilton tower, asked for clearance to enter, and informed him of our intention to land. As it was now the middle of the night, and all wise Cessna pilots were safely tucked in their beds, we had the place to ourselves, and were cleared to land with little interest from Hamilton tower. So we started decsent. We broke through a very thin layer of cloud, and lined things up. It was a very clear night, so once below the thin layer, everything was easy to see. Sure enough, a beautiful well lit, albeit a bit snowy, runway lay ahead. We reported the runway in sight to Hamilton tower, approached straight in from many miles back, and landed. Somewhere between the time my host landed, and slowing down, I had this uneasy feeling and looked back, out the now very useful Cessna 150 back window.
To my tremendous alarm, I saw a Boeing 737, who had landed behind us, and was catching up really fast! I instructed my host to turn off the runway. He told me that we were not yet at the taxiway. What ever I said next convinced him that was of very minor importance at this moment! My next recollection was that of a Boeing 737 wingtip passing remarkably close to us, as we crowded the left snowbank, and rolled to a stop. I also was keenly aware of the incredible amount of snow which is thrown up by the Boeing’s engines hard in reverse. There was no collision.
Now, what had just happened there? We looked over at the tower, and saw a red light. It did not flash or anything, it just stayed on – for minutes! So, we just stayed where we were. The Boeing left the scene. After some time, a yellow pickup truck drove up to us, on the door was written “Buffalo Airport Authority”. Things made a lot more sense now! We were told to follow him to the FBO. We did.
When we parked. The driver told us, that the tower would like a phone call from the pilot. Once inside, my host made the call. It did not go well at all. He was being melted by an angry air traffic controller. Whatever transpired, resulted in my host handing the phone to me. The stern voice told me “Do you understand that your friend is in a lot of trouble?”, “Yes” I replied. A few questions in, we got to the “How old are you son?” part. I reported my age. The controller ranted on for a while. Occasionally he asked my thoughts, as though they had any value in this situation. Along the course of the call, feeling a little put upon, I asked the question which had been growing in my mind: “We were squawking 1200, mode C the whole time, and were getting a return, did you not see us on radar as we approached straight in for many miles from the south?”. Well, that created a long pause….
He said “Put your friend back on the phone.” I complied. Whatever he said to my host then went not much farther than satisfying himself that we would not be flying again that night. Uh, No! The phone call ended. My host was completely perplexed at this point. We went to a hotel. Nothing more was ever said to us. We took off the next day as though nothing had happened. This was decades before TCAS, so the Boeing pilot, who was doing an instrument approach, would have completely relied on the controller for traffic separation. I suspect that the controller on radar that night was not as focused as they should have been....
Since then, I have learned, that it's always better to ask ATC, if you have any doubts (particularly, where you are!)....
Okay, that reminds me of another story, and I have my book open anyway....
One clear winter day, I was up bimbling around in the 182. I heard one of the flying club’s 172’s on the radio, the pilot sounded panicked. He was asking for help. He said he was disoriented and lost – it was a clear winter day. I knew the guy on the radio at the club, and knew that there was little he could do to assist this pilot, both from a resources and experience perspective. So, I came on the club frequency, and offered to help – offer accepted.
I had the panicked pilot change to a less busy frequency, and he met me there. I wanted to get to the heart of the problem quickly, so a few questions: “Are you upright?”, “Yes.”, Is the engine running okay?”, “Yes”, how much fuel do you have?”, “Just under half tanks.”, How long have you been flying?”, “About an hour.”, Can you climb and maintain level flight for a few minutes?”. “Yes.”
Okay, so the lost pilot was still lost, and could be 100 miles from me, but was not in immanent danger, and seemed much calmer for talking to me. So, as it was a clear winter day, and the visibility was probably 150 miles, I directed his attention to four prominent white plumes of smoke from a west Toronto power plant. Colloquially, they were “the four stacks” and a common VFR reporting point. Happily, today, visible for more than 100 miles. “Can you see the four plumes of white smoke?”, “Yes.”, “Please turn so you’re pointed at them, and tell me your heading….”, “150 degrees.”, “Okay, give me a rough guess as to how far you are from them…”, “40 miles.”.
So, that put him just on the north side of Toronto International Airport, and the approach path to runway 15 there. Perhaps YYZ ATC was tearing their hair out wondering who had blundered into the approach path…. “Stand by on this frequency, I’ll be right back to you…”, “Okay”. I call Toronto radar: “Toronto Radar, this is C 182 C-GNNQ, I’m north east of you 30 miles, squawking 1200, trying to help a lost pilot. He may be in the approach path to 15, do you have unreported traffic there?”. “Negative NNQ. Bring him to this frequency, and I’ll help you find him.”. So, I got back to the wayward pilot, and got us all on 119.3. Radar instructed him to fly the triangle. After a couple of minutes, Radar called me, and said he was located, and would vector me to him. He was instructed to be at 2000 feet, and I was vectored to him at 2500. As I approached, Radar said I was a mile back of him. “There’s no one down there”, I reported. “You’ve just passed behind him” Radar reported. I still did not see him…. A happened to look up, and there was a 172 a thousand or so above me. “I’ve got him, I told Radar”. As I said that, I saw the 172 change heading directly toward another area airport. Hmmm, now he flies a straight line! So I put on the power, and climbed up along side him, as he maintained a perfect heading toward the Toronto Island Airport. I came along side, and recognized the plane of another flying club – not the plane I was looking for at all. Perhaps he did not think that I was flying a plane which could catch up to him when he bolted! I reported to Radar that it was the wrong plane. About now, our lost pilot started sounding panicky again… “I’m low on fuel, and I see a runway”. Without missing beat, Radar replied: “Land on it". When you’re safely down, phone me at…..”. With this, I could be of no further assistance. I provided the registration of the 172 which had been flying triangles, copying the instructions of Radar, meant for my pilot. Radar confirmed that they were not taking to this plane – I bet that they would be!
So, I headed back toward home. Along the way, Radar calls me: “Wanna know where he landed?”. “Yes, I do!”, “Downsview”, an airport in north central Toronto, surrounded by major highways, thousands of buildings, and of course all of the manufacturing facilities of deHavilland Canada. ‘Not open to civil traffic, but… any port in a storm, I guess. I suppose that the copy cat pilot’s triangles were noticeably better than those of my lost pilot, as he’d been triangling for a half hour or so just east of YYZ, and gone un noticed. I was asked to fly an instructor and some gas down to Donwsview to recover the lost pilot, which was happily otherwise uneventful. I’m sure that the pilot of the other 172 got a talking to!
So, triangles do work on radar, and should be employed if you feel you need help from radar, and have no other means of contact.
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From a lapsed PPL and retired ATCO (EGPK and Prestwick Centre), tongue in cheek for a few hints below.
Congratulations on getting your licence
Always call in good time, first call "XXX approach, G-ABCD" and wait for either "standby" or an invitation to "pass your message"
Do NOT state your current position as over the hamlet that your GPS shows right below you !
Have a plan to enter "not above XXXX feet" with a route via the appropriate VRPs or well known towns or landmarks.
Be prepared to hold clear of the final approach or climb out if requested.
If want to enter the real Scottish TMA (Class D) call FIS first, tell them what you are looking for, these guys and gals have a direct line to the relevant controller.
Having a transponder will make your life much easier but be aware there is a crafty tool that alerts controllers to infringements if you are squawking.
Happy flying and be careful with the coming winter weather.
PS. ATCOs and FISOs don't bite, although some are more grumpy that others.
Congratulations on getting your licence
Always call in good time, first call "XXX approach, G-ABCD" and wait for either "standby" or an invitation to "pass your message"
Do NOT state your current position as over the hamlet that your GPS shows right below you !
Have a plan to enter "not above XXXX feet" with a route via the appropriate VRPs or well known towns or landmarks.
Be prepared to hold clear of the final approach or climb out if requested.
If want to enter the real Scottish TMA (Class D) call FIS first, tell them what you are looking for, these guys and gals have a direct line to the relevant controller.
Having a transponder will make your life much easier but be aware there is a crafty tool that alerts controllers to infringements if you are squawking.
Happy flying and be careful with the coming winter weather.
PS. ATCOs and FISOs don't bite, although some are more grumpy that others.
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Well done on getting your PPL and realising that the real learning has just begun. If you always keep that in mind you will not go far wrong. I am a bit surprised that much of what you are looking to find out was not covered as part of your PPL course.
During my PPL training (in Scotland) the only controlled airspace I have flown through (other than a MATZ) was the Edinburgh CTR once
You are correct to ask and there is much to learn, you cannot be expected to remember everything.
