Converting onto fixed-gear Saratoga
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: St Albans
Age: 58
Posts: 4
Converting onto fixed-gear Saratoga
I’ve been flying Archers for the last 10 years, with the 4 years before that consisting of 172s and a Grumman Tiger. I have just short of 300 hours in my logbook, no IR or IMC.
Im currently flying from Fowlmere Elstree and am interested in converting to a complex aircraft, partly for the challenge and partly to extend the places I can reach with friends/ family in the back.
Fowlmere is my airfield of choice and they currently rent a fixed-gear 1989 Saratoga.
My question is: am I over-reaching myself transitioning onto a 300hp 6 seat aircraft or should I convert first to the Arrow 4 T tail I can rent from Elstree?
Fowlmere as a training place is so much easier to learn at as it is so less busy than Elstree, the airspace is less congested, rarely anyone else in the circuit and you can actually park your car there without waiting for someone to leave first (unlike Elstree).
I do have a friend I can fly with regularly. He’s very experienced on complex types.
Im currently flying from Fowlmere Elstree and am interested in converting to a complex aircraft, partly for the challenge and partly to extend the places I can reach with friends/ family in the back.
Fowlmere is my airfield of choice and they currently rent a fixed-gear 1989 Saratoga.
My question is: am I over-reaching myself transitioning onto a 300hp 6 seat aircraft or should I convert first to the Arrow 4 T tail I can rent from Elstree?
Fowlmere as a training place is so much easier to learn at as it is so less busy than Elstree, the airspace is less congested, rarely anyone else in the circuit and you can actually park your car there without waiting for someone to leave first (unlike Elstree).
I do have a friend I can fly with regularly. He’s very experienced on complex types.
Last edited by zanshin999; 19th Jul 2020 at 11:12.
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Bressuire
Posts: 419
The Saratoga and Arrow IV are very different aeroplanes. The Saratoga is a fantastic workhorse with a good field performance. 6 seats and extremely stable. The Saratoga far outperforms the Arrow T tail on grass fields. The high T-tail degrades the T/O run/distance and landing roll/ distance performance and this also affects its handling in crosswinds. The Saratoga available to you has fixed gear so the only complexity is the propellor (turbo charger if fitted). The Arrow requires management of three complexities: propellor/ undercarriage and turbo charger.
As with most aeroplanes the value is primarily with how you intend to use it. Range is always much more valuable than speed by the way.
As with most aeroplanes the value is primarily with how you intend to use it. Range is always much more valuable than speed by the way.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 4,846
I agree with the foregoing advice. I don't know if Derick Gunning is still around there, if he is, he's a good person to talk to. Don't feel intimidated by a constant speed prop, once you understand the concept, and are familiar with a few do not do's, they're easy. Get a bunch of experience on type before planning to carry heavy loads.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 2,049
I think it's a good intro complex types - fixed gear leaves you plenty of time to learn about the prop (and the 300 horses!)
Get a good breifing on weight and balance as the training flights will be at a forward c of g and carrying passengers will noticably shift that rearwards.....
Get a good breifing on weight and balance as the training flights will be at a forward c of g and carrying passengers will noticably shift that rearwards.....
Join Date: May 2005
Location: France / Qatar
Age: 66
Posts: 1,033
Rudder trim will be more important than on the Archer. That 300hp will really twist you to the left at high power and low speeds, so consider using the rudder trim to help, if you find it convenient.
On the other hand, if you do use it, remember to retrim when you level off, speed up and throttle back.
The fuel system might have more tanks than you’re used to and might have some limitations on loading and selection.
Weight and Balance will definitely need some study. Run some practice numbers with different passenger numbers and fuel loads to get a feel of what’s possible.
With a larger spread of weights, performance will vary more. Again, run through some practice scenarios for different runway surfaces and weather conditions.
As others have said, I think that this is a sensible step for you. With a good instructor and plenty of time to study the manuals, as well as some relevant flight training, I’m sure you will enjoy the increased options that this plane will offer you.
On the other hand, if you do use it, remember to retrim when you level off, speed up and throttle back.
The fuel system might have more tanks than you’re used to and might have some limitations on loading and selection.
Weight and Balance will definitely need some study. Run some practice numbers with different passenger numbers and fuel loads to get a feel of what’s possible.
With a larger spread of weights, performance will vary more. Again, run through some practice scenarios for different runway surfaces and weather conditions.
As others have said, I think that this is a sensible step for you. With a good instructor and plenty of time to study the manuals, as well as some relevant flight training, I’m sure you will enjoy the increased options that this plane will offer you.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: St Albans
Age: 58
Posts: 4
Derek Gunning will be my instructor on the Saratoga. 👍
Thanks for this - I’d heard about the Arrow’s T tail characteristics, it’s non-turbo by the way. So is the Saratoga - “Range is more valuable than speed” very true.
Thanks for the advice, I’ve made up an excel version of the aircraft’s weight and balance sheet, playing around with fuel and payloads to see how each affects the CofG. I’m going to make another spreadsheet with runway conditions, surfaces, wind etc with 4 people to give me a feel for what to expect. The aircraft is G-BVWZ, by the way, 1989 vintage.
Thanks for this - I’d heard about the Arrow’s T tail characteristics, it’s non-turbo by the way. So is the Saratoga - “Range is more valuable than speed” very true.
Thanks for the advice, I’ve made up an excel version of the aircraft’s weight and balance sheet, playing around with fuel and payloads to see how each affects the CofG. I’m going to make another spreadsheet with runway conditions, surfaces, wind etc with 4 people to give me a feel for what to expect. The aircraft is G-BVWZ, by the way, 1989 vintage.
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 19th Jul 2020 at 16:23. Reason: typo
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 71
Posts: 1,598
I had a Club member who had only flown C172, not even a PA28, need to buy a 6-place to replace his 172. We found a PA32. The conversion took about 3 hours, absolutely no problem at all. As above, the biggest things are the Weight and Balance, wisely you've got a spreadsheet going, and the fuel system. I know one PA32 owner with a massive kitchen timer mounted on the panel, to remind him to change tanks. Landing? As easy as an Archer, much easier than an Arrow IV, which in my view is the worst aircraft Piper ever made and is to be avoided like the plague. Oh, actually, I'd include the PA32 Lance, which also has a T-tail, quite nasty.
I'm just amazed there aren't more Saratogas about. Apparently Piper opened the line up again but closed it soon after as it wasn't selling. Shame.
TOO
I'm just amazed there aren't more Saratogas about. Apparently Piper opened the line up again but closed it soon after as it wasn't selling. Shame.
TOO
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 4,846
If you think it’s a 6 seater check the w&b. I’ve found them to be very large and comfortable 4 seaters.
And, While I'm giving loading advice, yes, a plane will cruise faster/more efficiently with an aft C of G. But, if you err behind the aft limit, a stall may occur more easily, and spin recovery may become very difficult, if not impossible (I've done some testing on this). So, do the W&B!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: West Coast Canada
Posts: 4,017
The biggest issue with transitioning to an airplane that is not the typical flight school type is getting a checkout from someone who actually has experience in operating the type and can give you the tips and tricks and the gotcha’s
If the only aircraft your instructor has flown is a warrior than it is a waste of time to get your checkout from him/her
Some of thr things I would expect to see covered in a check out for someone going from an Archer to a Saratoga would be
- Operation of the fuel injected IO 540. Starting, particularly when hot is very different from the simple 4 banger in the Archer. Similarly proper leaning is important
- Operating a constant speed propeller
- practical advice on power settings for high cruise, normal cruise, and economical cruise. Personally I find the most comfortable power settings are over square, 23 in and 2200 RPM is one I use a lot
- WeIght and balance in practice. You have 6 seats and 2 baggage areas. What is the best way to load. Personally I think the ideal C of G is about 1/3 from the aft limit.
- handling practice at both extremes. light and forward C of G and gross weight and aft C of G. The airplane feels quite different at these 2 extremes
- The sight picture on landing. The airplane normally sits a bit tail low and has a wide and long cowl., and so to get a good flare you will not be able to see straight see over the nose
- The airplane has 3 doors. Making sure they are all closed and locked particularly the nose baggage door is important as well as what to do if one opens in flight.
If the only aircraft your instructor has flown is a warrior than it is a waste of time to get your checkout from him/her
Some of thr things I would expect to see covered in a check out for someone going from an Archer to a Saratoga would be
- Operation of the fuel injected IO 540. Starting, particularly when hot is very different from the simple 4 banger in the Archer. Similarly proper leaning is important
- Operating a constant speed propeller
- practical advice on power settings for high cruise, normal cruise, and economical cruise. Personally I find the most comfortable power settings are over square, 23 in and 2200 RPM is one I use a lot
- WeIght and balance in practice. You have 6 seats and 2 baggage areas. What is the best way to load. Personally I think the ideal C of G is about 1/3 from the aft limit.
- handling practice at both extremes. light and forward C of G and gross weight and aft C of G. The airplane feels quite different at these 2 extremes
- The sight picture on landing. The airplane normally sits a bit tail low and has a wide and long cowl., and so to get a good flare you will not be able to see straight see over the nose
- The airplane has 3 doors. Making sure they are all closed and locked particularly the nose baggage door is important as well as what to do if one opens in flight.
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 60
Posts: 4,846
The biggest issue with transitioning to an airplane that is not the typical flight school type is getting a checkout from someone who actually has experience in operating the type and can give you the tips and tricks and the gotcha’s
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: St Albans
Age: 58
Posts: 4
Thanks for everyone’s advice, now have 10 hours on the aircraft and very happy flying it. I’ve written up my conversion for flyer magazine who have said they will publish it in the next few issues.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,791
Get a bunch of experience on type before planning to carry heavy loads
