Spinning advice from 1936
Usually referred to as 'Beddenplank' (bedboard) or 'Fokkerstaart' (Fokker tail), its use is fortunately no longer required. Strakes are acceptable.
I haven’t done much spinning in PA-28s and it was a long time ago so the information here was a surprise to me https://assets.publishing.service.go...pdf_501564.pdf
Thread Starter
See the airflow over a stalled wing
a museum piece which may help today's students who may not have experienced much slow flight: this film was shot in 8mm cine almost 40 yrs ago, transferred from film to VHS, then its cassette lay forgotten in a filing cabinet drawer for another 15 years when we transferred it yet again to DVD and 10 years later to newfangled MPEG4 -- so the quality is terrible! After our discussion of spinning I hope it might be helpful in visualising airflow over the wing, and that hasn't changed since the Wright Brothers.
I'm still impressed by the viceless handling of Piper's oft derided 'Hershey bar' wing, as you can see it had no tendency to drop one side even when the nose was held well up with about 20% power. the nose gently rising and falling with the stick held steady at about three-quarters aft. Maybe someone can provide more info, as I'm decades out of touch with modern instruction methods. I'd love to do it all over again ...
I'm still impressed by the viceless handling of Piper's oft derided 'Hershey bar' wing, as you can see it had no tendency to drop one side even when the nose was held well up with about 20% power. the nose gently rising and falling with the stick held steady at about three-quarters aft. Maybe someone can provide more info, as I'm decades out of touch with modern instruction methods. I'd love to do it all over again ...
There is only one answer: identify whether a spin or spiral dive and recover in accordance with the aircrafts manual. But, how many pilots know the correct recovery or any recognised recovery drill at all: Very few is the truthful answer.
Not to be forgotten is that a modern aircraft will not stall or spin on it's own, it must be caused to do so by the pilot. Only a pilot unfamiliar with stalling or spinning will cause the aircraft to spin unintentionally. The pilot is always the weak link and today's pilot population, in general, is unlikely to ever have spun an aeroplane.
The pilot who is both experienced and current in stall/spin will always be expected to recover very early on at the first signs. The question has to be that if the pilot does not know what it is they have done to cause the aircraft to stall and spin, then it must be best to let go. Eric Mueller's advice in such a circumstance is after letting go shove the pedal giving the most resistance hard to the floor. The current Extra 300 POH advice for the startled pilot is as follows;
'Disorientation spin recovery
If ever disorientation should occur during spins (normal or inverted) one method always works to stop the spin:
1. Power idle
2. Kick rudder to the heavier side
(this will always be against spin direction)
Not to be forgotten is that a modern aircraft will not stall or spin on it's own, it must be caused to do so by the pilot. Only a pilot unfamiliar with stalling or spinning will cause the aircraft to spin unintentionally. The pilot is always the weak link and today's pilot population, in general, is unlikely to ever have spun an aeroplane.
The pilot who is both experienced and current in stall/spin will always be expected to recover very early on at the first signs. The question has to be that if the pilot does not know what it is they have done to cause the aircraft to stall and spin, then it must be best to let go. Eric Mueller's advice in such a circumstance is after letting go shove the pedal giving the most resistance hard to the floor. The current Extra 300 POH advice for the startled pilot is as follows;
'Disorientation spin recovery
If ever disorientation should occur during spins (normal or inverted) one method always works to stop the spin:
1. Power idle
2. Kick rudder to the heavier side
(this will always be against spin direction)
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 7th Jul 2020 at 21:46.
I have never experienced a spin, and I feel I should. What sort of response do you think I would get if I asked an instructor to give me a one-off spin session?
(presumably not a good idea to try it alone on the basis of a youtube video!)
(presumably not a good idea to try it alone on the basis of a youtube video!)
Don't try it alone, and make sure you learn the differnce between a spin and a spiral dive. Well worth doing. Good luck
Most important when spin training, in support of safety, is to understand each stage of the spin and the various scenarios that can lead to it. The stall/spin recovery is simply unravelling the cause/s in reverse. It should not be an aerobatic exercise. The wham, bam , thank you sam approach does not work. The instructor in my view must always ensure that the pilot is not disorientated nor frightened more than they already will be, for this will be counter productive. Confidence that recovery is always possible is paramount. The unintended stall/spin will always be from a benign entry caused by naive pilot mishandling, it will not be from an extreme attitude. Prevention is always better than the cure.
Frightening and disorientating the student is counter productive. I've lost count of the number of pilots that I've had to spend time with over the decades unravelling the fear they have of stalling, even the word itself. There were (perhaps even now) too many chauvinistic instructors who sought to demonstrate their manhood instead of ensuring that the student has the confidence that the stall can, with certainty, be recovered by doing the correct things.
Frightening and disorientating the student is counter productive. I've lost count of the number of pilots that I've had to spend time with over the decades unravelling the fear they have of stalling, even the word itself. There were (perhaps even now) too many chauvinistic instructors who sought to demonstrate their manhood instead of ensuring that the student has the confidence that the stall can, with certainty, be recovered by doing the correct things.
From extensive youtube studies (!) spin training seems to require the student to both enter the spin and recover. Would it not make sense to include a session where an instructor puts it into a spin and asks the student to rescue it? Wouldn't that better teach the student to respond to an unexpected event? Especially as I guess that you quickly learn that if you entered a spin by shoving down your left foot, you need your right boot to recover, thus short cutting a key bit of the problem solving ?
Fl1ingfrog, Totally agree.
db, Yes, at the end of your training you should be able to recover after the instructor has entered the spin and has then asked you to identify the direction and recover. But first you need the step by step approach advocated Fl1ingfrog.
db, Yes, at the end of your training you should be able to recover after the instructor has entered the spin and has then asked you to identify the direction and recover. But first you need the step by step approach advocated Fl1ingfrog.
Moderator
I also entirely agree with Fl1ingfrog's post.
One of the elements of student learning, which both the student and instructor must understand and compensate for, is the student being so saturated by something new, that their only reaction is "what just happened?", while nothing was learned. This applies to many things which occur in a short period of time, beyond just spinning. However, spin training has been sacrificed in today's training environment, so it'll be the first to be misunderstood.
So the instructor should thoroughly brief, and then enter and recover as opposite as possible to "wham, bam, thank you Sam", brief it and slow it down. The student preparing by watching videos, to get a sense of what to expect, however, the viewer cannot be certain if the video represents a well accomplished spin, or a botch. I've seen lots of botched piloting maneuvers on video, and rarely does the performer say "wow, that was a both, don't do that!". Similar with un mentored use of home computer flight simulators.
It is a surprisingly basic problem with these type of maneuvers that once the pilot has a windshield full of rotating ground, and no horizon, their sense of attitude is not only lost, but worse, there is a sense of urgency from the ground rush. This can promote botched recoveries, as the student will rush a recovery, and secondary stall. Honestly, though I very much promote spin training, if I had to choose only one, between spin or spiral dive training, it'd be spiral dive training. Spiral dives are more likely to be carelessly entered at altitudes from which recovery is possible. It is uncommon for a pilot in "normal" flight to enter an unintentional spin at altitude, but a loss of control at altitude from cruise flight will more likely become a spiral dive than a spin, and the spiral dive is very recoverable early on.
But yes, find a competent instructor, with a spin approved plane, and go get some spin training. You'll know that you're about to get some good training when the session begins with a non rushed briefing, which includes the instructor's hand pointing up and down, and rolling. Follow along with your hand for the practice....
One of the elements of student learning, which both the student and instructor must understand and compensate for, is the student being so saturated by something new, that their only reaction is "what just happened?", while nothing was learned. This applies to many things which occur in a short period of time, beyond just spinning. However, spin training has been sacrificed in today's training environment, so it'll be the first to be misunderstood.
So the instructor should thoroughly brief, and then enter and recover as opposite as possible to "wham, bam, thank you Sam", brief it and slow it down. The student preparing by watching videos, to get a sense of what to expect, however, the viewer cannot be certain if the video represents a well accomplished spin, or a botch. I've seen lots of botched piloting maneuvers on video, and rarely does the performer say "wow, that was a both, don't do that!". Similar with un mentored use of home computer flight simulators.
It is a surprisingly basic problem with these type of maneuvers that once the pilot has a windshield full of rotating ground, and no horizon, their sense of attitude is not only lost, but worse, there is a sense of urgency from the ground rush. This can promote botched recoveries, as the student will rush a recovery, and secondary stall. Honestly, though I very much promote spin training, if I had to choose only one, between spin or spiral dive training, it'd be spiral dive training. Spiral dives are more likely to be carelessly entered at altitudes from which recovery is possible. It is uncommon for a pilot in "normal" flight to enter an unintentional spin at altitude, but a loss of control at altitude from cruise flight will more likely become a spiral dive than a spin, and the spiral dive is very recoverable early on.
But yes, find a competent instructor, with a spin approved plane, and go get some spin training. You'll know that you're about to get some good training when the session begins with a non rushed briefing, which includes the instructor's hand pointing up and down, and rolling. Follow along with your hand for the practice....
double_barrel to clarify: it is not always the incorrect use of the rudder that can cause the unintentional spin but likely a lack of it.
Pilot Dar as always brings knowledge and common sense to any debate. He has introduced the danger of a spiral dive as a threat. The spiral dive when uncorrected and allowed to develop can be very difficult to get out of in some aircraft particularly those non aerobatic types with a large amount of inbuilt stability. The spiral dive can be just as disorientating as a spin and the inexperienced in such things will have some difficulty in identifying one from the other. When not corrected early the speed may build rapidly to vne: the aeroplane becomes extremely stable, the controls difficult to shift, the risk of over stressing them and a possible failure may dominate the pilots mind.
The difficulty for spiral dive training is that we can take stalling and spinning to the fully developed stage but not the spiral dive recoveries, at or around the aircrafts vne, where it matters and with the apparent control lock.
Pilot Dar as always brings knowledge and common sense to any debate. He has introduced the danger of a spiral dive as a threat. The spiral dive when uncorrected and allowed to develop can be very difficult to get out of in some aircraft particularly those non aerobatic types with a large amount of inbuilt stability. The spiral dive can be just as disorientating as a spin and the inexperienced in such things will have some difficulty in identifying one from the other. When not corrected early the speed may build rapidly to vne: the aeroplane becomes extremely stable, the controls difficult to shift, the risk of over stressing them and a possible failure may dominate the pilots mind.
The difficulty for spiral dive training is that we can take stalling and spinning to the fully developed stage but not the spiral dive recoveries, at or around the aircrafts vne, where it matters and with the apparent control lock.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 8th Jul 2020 at 14:49.
It's certainly true that different types recover differently. I've done dozens, maybe over a hundred, spins in the Pitts S2C. It is a pussy cat to recover. Opposite rudder, relax the stick, and it's out in a quarter turn even from a fully developed (>3 turn) spin. But recently I flew the Extra 300 and there you have to do it by the book. Opposite rudder, wait, wait, then stick full forward. It WILL recover if you do it the Pitts way, but only after half a turn or more. It's said that the "let go" technique doesn't work in the Extra, though I haven't tried.
Flat spins (which you should never get into by accident, if you're in CG limits) are a different matter. It's kind of fun to watch the airspeed drop to zero. In the Pitts, a "proper" recovery takes about three turns while you wait for the nose to drop, the airspeed to build and the rudder to get some authority. BUT... you can cheat. If you leave the power in (which you need to get the spin to flatten in the first place) then the propwash gives you enough rudder authority to recover almost instantly.
That works fine... until it doesn't. I got so used to the technique that I routinely recovered spins without pulling power. Then I got into a "knife edge spin" which feels like a spin but isn't really. Nothing I did helped. My instructor pulled the power and we dropped out of it in an instant (it's maintained gyroscopically). Later I got into one again (I have no idea how to enter one deliberately, and neither does my seriously experienced instructor). Following my new training, I instantly pulled the power and recovered. "Oh," he said, "I was hoping you'd hold it for a while and see how it developed".
Flat spins (which you should never get into by accident, if you're in CG limits) are a different matter. It's kind of fun to watch the airspeed drop to zero. In the Pitts, a "proper" recovery takes about three turns while you wait for the nose to drop, the airspeed to build and the rudder to get some authority. BUT... you can cheat. If you leave the power in (which you need to get the spin to flatten in the first place) then the propwash gives you enough rudder authority to recover almost instantly.
That works fine... until it doesn't. I got so used to the technique that I routinely recovered spins without pulling power. Then I got into a "knife edge spin" which feels like a spin but isn't really. Nothing I did helped. My instructor pulled the power and we dropped out of it in an instant (it's maintained gyroscopically). Later I got into one again (I have no idea how to enter one deliberately, and neither does my seriously experienced instructor). Following my new training, I instantly pulled the power and recovered. "Oh," he said, "I was hoping you'd hold it for a while and see how it developed".
Moderator
In the Pitts, a "proper" recovery takes about three turns while you wait for the nose to drop, the airspeed to build and the rudder to get some authority.
Flat spins (which you should never get into by accident, if you're in CG limits) are a different matter. It's kind of fun to watch the airspeed drop to zero.
The difficulty for spiral dive training is that we can take stalling and spinning to the fully developed stage but not the spiral dive recoveries, at or around the aircrafts vne, where it matters and with the apparent control lock
”(ii) The airplane will recover in not more than 1 1/2 turns after completing application of normal or manufacturer-prescribed recovery controls”
and
”Following abused control usage, reversion to normal pro-spin controls for up to two turns is acceptable, prior to the normal recovery control inputs, which must result in recovery in not more than two turns. In addition, going directly from the control abuse condition to the normal recovery control condition should not render the spin unrecoverable. For example, after evaluating the effect of relaxing the back stick input during the spin, it would be reasonable to expect the pilot to apply normal recovery use of rudder and elevator without first returning to full back stick.”
So, 2 + 2 = 4 turns from when one stops the abused control usage i.e. from when one decides to recover from the flat spin.
plus
”(8) Recovery. Recoveries should consist of throttle reduced to idle, ailerons neutralized, full opposite rudder, followed by forward elevator control as required to get the wing out of stall and recover to level flight. For acrobatic category spins, the manufacturer may establish additional recovery procedures, provided they show compliance for those procedures with this section.” Check the AFM or the cockpit placard for statements something like .... for flat spins use inspin aileron.
The certification test pilot will use exactly the correct technique when demonstrating spin recoveries. I’ve flown most model Pitts (currently own an S-2C) including all of the certified factory production models - they do exactly what is promised.
Having not flown a Pitts, I would presume this would be for the uncertified version, as the certified version would have had to demonstrate being recovered from a one turn spin, in one additional turn to be certified at all....
From a normal spin - neither flattened nor accelerated - as I said it recovers in about a quarter turn.
The Pitts is truly delightful to fly. Unfortunately though at the end of every flight you have to land it, which is a different story. (Well, you don't HAVE to, but it really pushes the insurance up if you don't).
Some interesting information here on the need for balanced turns and what can happen if you don't!
Slipping and Skidding - Dumb Question.
Slipping and Skidding - Dumb Question.
