Aiming for the numbers
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Aiming for the numbers
Okay, it's cool to aim for the numbers and kiss it on right where you planned, graceful and short... well done! And well done to the fellow in the nice newish looking PA-18 type in front of me today. I was coming to mid downwind, as I watched a really nicely executed landing. It was only he and I in the pattern, and we were both on the radio, so zero conflict risk. So, he's down and slowed to a walking pace, and I'm coming to the base turn, so I stretch it out a little... Mine is a shoulder wing plane, so I loose my view of him on extended downwind, but he must be well down to clear at the end (no mid length taxiway exit). So I turn base, and he comes into view - still puttering along the runway. I call my base turn, no reaction. So I start thinking that a final turn is going to be too soon. My circuit speed is hardly faster than his, so everything should fit, but it's not, it's getting backed up. So I listen and look around, no traffic. So I orbit my base to final turn.... Each time around, assessing his progress - it is only a 2300 foot long runway! On my third orbit, I figured I could make it fit, without an overshoot, so I called turning final. I flew a mile mile long final, during which I hear him on the radio (as now, he's finally cleared, and is taxiing back, so he can see me), and he says: "Wow, you're high!". Surprised, I replied: " 'Just waiting around up here, in case I needed to overshoot...". I landed happily, and rolled out to the end to clear, as he was still taxiing in.
So, fellow pilots, if you know that someone is behind you, try to keep your runway time brief. If you can, maybe not land right on the numbers, if you think you'd like to/have to taxi the entire runway length at a walking pace. Or... Just let the pilot behind you know that you need to tie up the runway, and as long as I'm not compelled to land, I could fly another circuit. It's a quiet airport, so no big deal. But, planning your runway use can become pretty important at a bigger or busier airport. Certainly, putting your PA-18 on the numbers on a large busy runway is not going to entitle you to roll out the length of the runway. While flying a Caravan at Ottawa two weeks ago, I had 10,000 feet or so of runway, and my destination on the airport was off the far end of that runway. I did tell the tower that I would land long, and keep the speed up, and they were fine with that. For my last landing of the day, they requested minimum 150 knots on final, I complied with no problem. Decelerating over the runway was not a problem, and overshoot if I muff it. Tidy touchdown, cleared as directed.
It's just traffic courtesy.... (Thanks for letting me vent a little!)
So, fellow pilots, if you know that someone is behind you, try to keep your runway time brief. If you can, maybe not land right on the numbers, if you think you'd like to/have to taxi the entire runway length at a walking pace. Or... Just let the pilot behind you know that you need to tie up the runway, and as long as I'm not compelled to land, I could fly another circuit. It's a quiet airport, so no big deal. But, planning your runway use can become pretty important at a bigger or busier airport. Certainly, putting your PA-18 on the numbers on a large busy runway is not going to entitle you to roll out the length of the runway. While flying a Caravan at Ottawa two weeks ago, I had 10,000 feet or so of runway, and my destination on the airport was off the far end of that runway. I did tell the tower that I would land long, and keep the speed up, and they were fine with that. For my last landing of the day, they requested minimum 150 knots on final, I complied with no problem. Decelerating over the runway was not a problem, and overshoot if I muff it. Tidy touchdown, cleared as directed.
It's just traffic courtesy.... (Thanks for letting me vent a little!)
Just for comparison and clarity for any Brits reading your post (that is in no way criticising your actions whatsoever), in the UK, orbits anywhere inside an ATZ are a big no no, unless the airfield has full ATC and then, only when instructed or approved by the tower controller and also only on the downwind leg turning away from the airfield. There was a fatal accident some years ago at Southend when a student was instructed to orbit on final and spun in...................
Just for comparison and clarity for any Brits reading your post (that is in no way criticising your actions whatsoever), in the UK, orbits anywhere inside an ATZ are a big no no, unless the airfield has full ATC and then, only when instructed or approved by the tower controller and also only on the downwind leg turning away from the airfield. There was a fatal accident some years ago at Southend when a student was instructed to orbit on final and spun in...................
Of course when I was an ATCO I frequently instructed pilots of light VFR traffic to orbit if there was IFR jet traffic 'inside 4' giving them direction of turn too.
Once at Farnborough with its 1800m LDA I had 2 light aircraft landing and I simply instructed the first one to aim to touch down at the intersection with the north/south runway and the second to aim for the numbers; unconventional I know but having worked a similar system at several PFA Rallys I was positive it was 'safe'.
NB: CAP 493 (Manual of Air Traffic Services) covers this at Section 1, Chapter 1, para 1.2, second sentence. (which in my opinion is too rarely invoked by controllers nowadays).
A similar proviso is included in CAP 797 (Flight Information Service Officer Manual).
Last edited by chevvron; 6th Jan 2020 at 10:48.
Good call Pilot DAR.
I'd call it 'airmanship', or lack there-of.
Without going into a rant it is apparent on lots of UK aerodromes too. How often do you see pilots pulling their aircraft out of the hangar and then going into the club-house for a 30 minute chat or briefing, leaving the aircraft in the way of everybody, or leaving the aircraft at the fuel pumps, or starting the aircraft tail-on to the open hangar doors.
I could go on...
I don't think it is usually deliberate but simply reflects lack of thought, lack of airmanship training when they were learning to fly.
Be considerate and aware of the needs of others; not a bad motto for life really.
I'd call it 'airmanship', or lack there-of.
Without going into a rant it is apparent on lots of UK aerodromes too. How often do you see pilots pulling their aircraft out of the hangar and then going into the club-house for a 30 minute chat or briefing, leaving the aircraft in the way of everybody, or leaving the aircraft at the fuel pumps, or starting the aircraft tail-on to the open hangar doors.
I could go on...
I don't think it is usually deliberate but simply reflects lack of thought, lack of airmanship training when they were learning to fly.
Be considerate and aware of the needs of others; not a bad motto for life really.
I'm always acutely aware of the need to vacate the runway in our very busy, full ATC, environment. Sometimes after landing, ATC does not have a spare second to talk to me and I am left wondering what to do. I have in the past taken an apparently vacant taxiway without being asked and then stopped past the hold-short line waiting for instructions. No-one complained, but I don't know if that was the right thing to do; I certainly don't want to stop on the runway. A couple of times, after missing the 1st exit I have found myself hesitating at the intersection with the crossing runway, obviously I cannot backtrack on that without permission, but it's a much faster way to get clear, than trundling another 2500' to the last taxiway, so I have paused. So far they have always told me to backtrack. I suppose if they didn't I would have no choice but to taxi as fast as possible all the way to the end.
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I'm with Mr. Average. I recall the Southend accident very well, although the circumstances (fully ATC tower, a/c on final, student 1st solo etc) are a little different, but the principals are the same.
At our air/ground (sometimes no ground at all) airfield we teach 'extend downwind leg' or 'go around at circuit height/altitude'. NEVER orbit ANYWHERE in the circuit. You might meet someone coming the other way!
I learned to fly at Denham and later did my FI course there. It was a very strict policy for the baulked landing of 'go around at circuit altitude'. There was the 'option' of an early crosswind turn provided there was no traffic already downwind.
Interesting to watch the arrivals on you tube at Oshkosh, where there are different coloured spots down the runway. However, I don't think anyone would be amused if you chose to do an orbit on final. In fact, I think the instruction is to go-around and go back to the beginning of the procedure.
Going back to Pilot DAR's main point...
How sure were you of the experience of the pilot who was in your way? I'd also say it's better if you're not completely sure to land with space to spare, rather than go off the end. There's another you tube posting form a guy called Juan Browns featuring a Cirrus that landed long, went off the end and slightly bent the aircraft (including shock loading the engine). Slightly worse, I'd say, than slightly inconveniencing another aircraft behind you by landing early and strolling down the runway.
At the other end of the scale, I used to work at the World's busiest single-runway airport. We had a system that measured runway occupancy times to the nearest second. Any operator/airline that spent more runway occupancy time than was considered normal was 'written to'. We spent millions on building fast turnoffs that could be safely taken at 60kt and featured countdown marks and lights (RETILS) to encourage proper planning of runway exit. The worst anyone can do is to brake hard for an early exit, then miss it and dawdle down to the next one.
TOO
At our air/ground (sometimes no ground at all) airfield we teach 'extend downwind leg' or 'go around at circuit height/altitude'. NEVER orbit ANYWHERE in the circuit. You might meet someone coming the other way!
I learned to fly at Denham and later did my FI course there. It was a very strict policy for the baulked landing of 'go around at circuit altitude'. There was the 'option' of an early crosswind turn provided there was no traffic already downwind.
Interesting to watch the arrivals on you tube at Oshkosh, where there are different coloured spots down the runway. However, I don't think anyone would be amused if you chose to do an orbit on final. In fact, I think the instruction is to go-around and go back to the beginning of the procedure.
Going back to Pilot DAR's main point...
How sure were you of the experience of the pilot who was in your way? I'd also say it's better if you're not completely sure to land with space to spare, rather than go off the end. There's another you tube posting form a guy called Juan Browns featuring a Cirrus that landed long, went off the end and slightly bent the aircraft (including shock loading the engine). Slightly worse, I'd say, than slightly inconveniencing another aircraft behind you by landing early and strolling down the runway.
At the other end of the scale, I used to work at the World's busiest single-runway airport. We had a system that measured runway occupancy times to the nearest second. Any operator/airline that spent more runway occupancy time than was considered normal was 'written to'. We spent millions on building fast turnoffs that could be safely taken at 60kt and featured countdown marks and lights (RETILS) to encourage proper planning of runway exit. The worst anyone can do is to brake hard for an early exit, then miss it and dawdle down to the next one.
TOO
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I have in the past taken an apparently vacant taxiway without being asked and then stopped past the hold-short line waiting for instructions.
in the UK, orbits anywhere inside an ATZ are a big no no, unless the airfield has full ATC and then, only when instructed or approved by the tower controller and also only on the downwind leg turning away from the airfield.
There was a fatal accident some years ago at Southend when a student was instructed to orbit on final and spun in...................
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How sure were you of the experience of the pilot who was in your way? I'd also say it's better if you're not completely sure to land with space to spare, rather than go off the end.
This is totally a courtesy discussion. I can certainly overshoot and refly the circuit, and probably should have in this case, but its a matter of my having information to know that I should expect to!
Isn't the basic principle (sic! Mr. TOO!) to use all available runway, because one never knows what happens next? Of course it is more important on take-off than on landing, but still it is what I expect from everybody. If I were to see a plane hovering over a good part of the runway instead of landing as short as possible, I'd be at red alert immediately.
Then again it will depend on the type or category of plane. My 450 kg ultralight can be pushed into the grass at short notice, if I hear someone in distress coming in behind me. Even if a Caravan is meant to be a bushplane, it might appreciate more considerate handling.
And to contradict myself, here is a little story of how I looked like a bit of a fool: flying this modest 80 HP 450 kg two-seater, I was, as stated, trained to always use every inch of runway available. On those runways carrying numbers, it was and is always a fun exercise to touch down before them! Then one day our federation had managed an invitation to use the long hard runway at EBFN Koksijde Airbase, to train power-fail landings with the engine really switched off, from downwind. On arrival I didn't think beyond the length of my nose, as we say here, and landed spot on the big numbers on that big runway - which left me with close on 2 km of taxiing... I did consider taking off again but that would have been even more ridiculous, I thought. I'll remember this story in a couple of months, when we have a similar practice week-end at EBBE Beauvechain - blessed be our military!
Then again it will depend on the type or category of plane. My 450 kg ultralight can be pushed into the grass at short notice, if I hear someone in distress coming in behind me. Even if a Caravan is meant to be a bushplane, it might appreciate more considerate handling.
And to contradict myself, here is a little story of how I looked like a bit of a fool: flying this modest 80 HP 450 kg two-seater, I was, as stated, trained to always use every inch of runway available. On those runways carrying numbers, it was and is always a fun exercise to touch down before them! Then one day our federation had managed an invitation to use the long hard runway at EBFN Koksijde Airbase, to train power-fail landings with the engine really switched off, from downwind. On arrival I didn't think beyond the length of my nose, as we say here, and landed spot on the big numbers on that big runway - which left me with close on 2 km of taxiing... I did consider taking off again but that would have been even more ridiculous, I thought. I'll remember this story in a couple of months, when we have a similar practice week-end at EBBE Beauvechain - blessed be our military!
At a commercial airport why would you land on the numbers when commercial aircraft land in the marked touchdown zone further up the runway?
Landing at a commercial airport in a Robin, with jet traffic behind, I asked the tower which exit whilst on long final (there were only two), he said second so I aimed to touch down nearly 3/4 of the way along the 5500' runway so I was at taxi speed well before the exit with about 1000' left 'in case' but minimised my runway occupancy time to a sensible amount. Seemed reasonable to me.
Landing at a commercial airport in a Robin, with jet traffic behind, I asked the tower which exit whilst on long final (there were only two), he said second so I aimed to touch down nearly 3/4 of the way along the 5500' runway so I was at taxi speed well before the exit with about 1000' left 'in case' but minimised my runway occupancy time to a sensible amount. Seemed reasonable to me.
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In the UK it is not uncommon for an orbit in the circuit. I am a little surprised by the comments above. OF COURSE take extreme care but if it aids spacing then I can't see what's wrong as long as you make your intentions very clear. I have also been instructed by ATC on occasions. Please leave the Southend incident out of this. We all know it shouldn't have happened and was very unfortunate.
Pilot DAR. Thank you for your very informative posts and sorry for the thread drift. Now I'm retired I can't afford to fly very much but have good memories. Keep it going!
Pilot DAR. Thank you for your very informative posts and sorry for the thread drift. Now I'm retired I can't afford to fly very much but have good memories. Keep it going!
DeeCee
The point is, it's ok at a full ATC airfield, but not at one with AFIS or air/ground, because they are not permitted to give instructions to aircraft in the air. To do so at an airfield in the UK (at least one with an ATZ = busy) is an airmanship problem and definitely not good TEM. We had a visitor just last weekend who did one after starting a base turn, he created havoc but the FISOs were pretty helpless due to their restrictions.
The point is, it's ok at a full ATC airfield, but not at one with AFIS or air/ground, because they are not permitted to give instructions to aircraft in the air. To do so at an airfield in the UK (at least one with an ATZ = busy) is an airmanship problem and definitely not good TEM. We had a visitor just last weekend who did one after starting a base turn, he created havoc but the FISOs were pretty helpless due to their restrictions.
If I know which exit I'll be taking, I'll land long or short as required to be at the right speed to take it in the flow of things - long taxis (slow or fast) are better avoided when possible.
as long as you make your intentions very clear
For those who say to always land on the numbers: what would you do at a "no runways" airfield? (I don't know if any are still left, but Solas beach would be similar.)
(Barra beach has marked runways.)
When I learned to fly, no radio, no tower lights, at Thruxton in 1964, the Jackeroos landed on the grass, according to the Signals T, but not on a runway. Land to the right of the preceeding aircraft, until near the hard runway, then a big jump to the left edge. A busy training airfield, with visiting traffic.
(Barra beach has marked runways.)
When I learned to fly, no radio, no tower lights, at Thruxton in 1964, the Jackeroos landed on the grass, according to the Signals T, but not on a runway. Land to the right of the preceeding aircraft, until near the hard runway, then a big jump to the left edge. A busy training airfield, with visiting traffic.
At a "no runways" aerodrome, I should guess there are no numbers to land on, either... 
So I would land on the most likely spot - if really determined to trust such an unlikely place... Then again, if there still were a landing T in these times, I'd be happy to take guidance from it... As I understand things, my little queer BE country is one of the last to still impose them. As uncouth as the country may be, though, it hasn't had "no runways" fields for the last fifty years or so. I did still have to study them though, and their rules, for my "air law" exams, perhaps 15 years ago.
BTW I did some research into the Jackeroo you mentioned, to little avail. Could it be you meant a Thruxton Jackaroo?
So I would land on the most likely spot - if really determined to trust such an unlikely place... Then again, if there still were a landing T in these times, I'd be happy to take guidance from it... As I understand things, my little queer BE country is one of the last to still impose them. As uncouth as the country may be, though, it hasn't had "no runways" fields for the last fifty years or so. I did still have to study them though, and their rules, for my "air law" exams, perhaps 15 years ago.BTW I did some research into the Jackeroo you mentioned, to little avail. Could it be you meant a Thruxton Jackaroo?
What did you have to look up, Sam: NORDO (?) Just asking.
This link is the UK AAIB report into the fatal accident at Southend, (referred to above by Mr Average), for non UK readers.
(the kid was just 16 years old, with 15 hrs total time). It is an indictment of failing an inexperienced youngster.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...BABB_07-07.pdf
Since then the "Student" prefix has been added to call signs in the UK.
Russ
This link is the UK AAIB report into the fatal accident at Southend, (referred to above by Mr Average), for non UK readers.
(the kid was just 16 years old, with 15 hrs total time). It is an indictment of failing an inexperienced youngster.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...BABB_07-07.pdf
Since then the "Student" prefix has been added to call signs in the UK.
Russ
Last edited by Russell Gulch; 11th Jan 2020 at 19:04.
What did you have to look up
And while we're at it, there's a surprising number of PPL'ers who take the presence and active use of radio as self-evident - while in truth it is only mandatory in controlled airspace, and at certain fields who publish the requirement, in France for example.