C172. Engine fire in flight procedure
I'm loving the Spitfire techniques! I find that these things increase my confidence in 'free form' flying and understanding how the a/c responds, it is such a nice change from the endless series of highly standardised, routine manoeuvres I am making in training. Also it seems to me to be nice as a means of loosing height quickly while maintaining the flexibility of being flapless. And, as mentioned, I was previously finding it difficult to use aileron without tracking it with the rudder on cross-wind landings and takeoffs and playing with crossed controls and plenty of altitude has helped me to get over that.
Of course, I take all the points about not over complicating things and sticking to the manual. I guess it’s lucky that I have you lot to bounce these things off. Pre such forums and Youtube, I guess everyone's instructor was god, now they must be sick of being told 'that's not what this bloke on Youtube said' !!
Of course, I take all the points about not over complicating things and sticking to the manual. I guess it’s lucky that I have you lot to bounce these things off. Pre such forums and Youtube, I guess everyone's instructor was god, now they must be sick of being told 'that's not what this bloke on Youtube said' !!
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It’s very difficult to post on forums like this as the audience is very wide and it’s difficult to pitch the advice at the correct level, clearly not all the readers are of sky god status so some sort of moderation has to be applied.
It therefore follows that any advice given should work for most of the audience most of the time. People may be able to sideslip aircraft into small spaces but this is the sort of technique if not trained and in practice results in low level spin entry with no chance of recovery and likely fatal consequences.
It therefore follows that any advice given should work for most of the audience most of the time. People may be able to sideslip aircraft into small spaces but this is the sort of technique if not trained and in practice results in low level spin entry with no chance of recovery and likely fatal consequences.
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Only one thing actually.
Close the Fuel Cut off valve ASAP and pull up to best glide speed.
Let the engine run to consume the little that is left in the carb and lines and die itself out of fuel starvation.
A fire needs fuel, oxygen and an ignition. => No fuel to burn, the fire will stop.
On sideslips.
KNOW your aircraft, KNOW your own capabilities with this aircraft.
- Some aircraft are prohibited for slips with flaps.
- Did you train on left and right slips? What altitude and speed.
- NEVER slip an aircraft without proper instruction.
- Set best glide speed and TRIM. => That way you only have to concentrate on direction with roll and yaw to you emergency landing field.
- Maintain best glide speed (do NOT pull or push on the stick-yoke but let the trim do its thing) and control sink rate and distance to emergency landing field with "S" turns.
- Know you altitude above ground level AT ALL TIMES.
And last but not least => NEVER go beyond your aircrafts and your own limitations.
Close the Fuel Cut off valve ASAP and pull up to best glide speed.
Let the engine run to consume the little that is left in the carb and lines and die itself out of fuel starvation.
A fire needs fuel, oxygen and an ignition. => No fuel to burn, the fire will stop.
On sideslips.
KNOW your aircraft, KNOW your own capabilities with this aircraft.
- Some aircraft are prohibited for slips with flaps.
- Did you train on left and right slips? What altitude and speed.
- NEVER slip an aircraft without proper instruction.
- Set best glide speed and TRIM. => That way you only have to concentrate on direction with roll and yaw to you emergency landing field.
- Maintain best glide speed (do NOT pull or push on the stick-yoke but let the trim do its thing) and control sink rate and distance to emergency landing field with "S" turns.
- Know you altitude above ground level AT ALL TIMES.
And last but not least => NEVER go beyond your aircrafts and your own limitations.
Moderator
- Some aircraft are prohibited for slips with flaps
Sec. 23.143
General.
(a) The airplane must be safely controllable and maneuverable during --
(1) Takeoff;
(2) Climb;
(3) Level flight;
(4) Dive; and
(5) Landing (power on and power off).
(b) It must be possible to make a smooth transition from one flight condition to another (including turns and slips) without exceptional piloting skill, alertness, or strength, and without danger of exceeding the limit load factor, under any probable operating condition..................
General.
(a) The airplane must be safely controllable and maneuverable during --
(1) Takeoff;
(2) Climb;
(3) Level flight;
(4) Dive; and
(5) Landing (power on and power off).
(b) It must be possible to make a smooth transition from one flight condition to another (including turns and slips) without exceptional piloting skill, alertness, or strength, and without danger of exceeding the limit load factor, under any probable operating condition..................
Sec. 23.177
[Static directional and lateral stability.]
(a) Three-control airplanes. The stability requirements for three-control airplanes are as follows:
(1) The static directional stability, as shown by the tendency to recover from a skid with the rudder free, must be positive for any landing gear and flap position appropriate to the takeoff, climb, cruise, and approach configurations. This must be shown with symmetrical power up to maximum continuous power, and at speeds from 1.2
up to the maximum allowable speed for the condition being investigated. The angle of skid for these tests must be appropriate to the type of airplane. At larger angles of skid up to that at which full rudder is used or a control force limit in Sec. 23.143 is reached, whichever occurs first, and at speeds from 1.2 
to VA, the rudder pedal force must not reverse.
(2) The static lateral stability, as shown by the tendency to raise the low wing in a slip, must be positive for any landing gear and flap positions. This must be shown with symmetrical power up to 75 percent of maximum continuous power at speeds above 1.2
, up to the maximum allowable speed for the configuration being investigated. The static lateral stability may not be negative at 1.2 
. The angle of slip for these tests must be appropriate to the type of airplane, but in no case may the slip angle be less than that obtainable with 10° of bank.
(3) In straight, steady slips at 1.2
for any landing gear and flap positions, and for any symmetrical power conditions up to 50 percent of maximum continuous power, the aileron and rudder control movements and forces must increase steadily (but not necessarily in constant proportion) as the angle of slip is increased up to the maximum appropriate to the type of airplane. At larger slip angles up to the angle at which the full rudder or aileron control is used or a control force limit contained in Sec. 23.143 is obtained, the rudder pedal force may not reverse. Enough bank must accompany slipping to hold a constant heading. Rapid entry into, or recovery from, a maximum slip may not result in uncontrollable flight characteristics. ...............
[Static directional and lateral stability.]
(a) Three-control airplanes. The stability requirements for three-control airplanes are as follows:
(1) The static directional stability, as shown by the tendency to recover from a skid with the rudder free, must be positive for any landing gear and flap position appropriate to the takeoff, climb, cruise, and approach configurations. This must be shown with symmetrical power up to maximum continuous power, and at speeds from 1.2
(2) The static lateral stability, as shown by the tendency to raise the low wing in a slip, must be positive for any landing gear and flap positions. This must be shown with symmetrical power up to 75 percent of maximum continuous power at speeds above 1.2
(3) In straight, steady slips at 1.2
Of course, an "avoid" placard should be carefully considered, and complied. But it is important to understand that it is not a prohibit, it's not an operational limitation. The wording in flight manuals, and warning placards is chosen very carefully ('cause of the lawyers), and must be considered by the pilot very literally - again, not a home made procedure, what the manufacturer says about flying the plane.
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I believe the avoid side slipping on a 172 comes from the older models with a 40 degree flap setting the newer models now have a 30 limit. Same with 150 40 max 152 30 max. The warning on some models which is not mentioned in the POH is don't open the throttle in the slip, always go back to balanced flight as some model will roll on their backs so fast you won't catch it. Happened to a site seeing C177 crossed controls for a good view pilot opened her up and she rolled in. On the 177 flap limit is 30 so it can be side slipped with them down.
Shut down as per the POH but I believe slipping away from the flames can be a good Idea fire walls don't hold up for ever.
In an oil fire if the engine can be stopped may be a good idea so on a VP pull to course pitch and slow down to stop the prop will reduce drag as well a bit more glide distance.
When I had an engine failure with oil smoke coming from the cowl no time as to low flight only lasted another 60 seconds.
Shut down as per the POH but I believe slipping away from the flames can be a good Idea fire walls don't hold up for ever.
In an oil fire if the engine can be stopped may be a good idea so on a VP pull to course pitch and slow down to stop the prop will reduce drag as well a bit more glide distance.
When I had an engine failure with oil smoke coming from the cowl no time as to low flight only lasted another 60 seconds.
Moderator
Shut down as per the POH but I believe slipping away from the flames can be a good Idea fire walls don't hold up for ever
Sec. 23.1191
Firewalls.
(a) Each engine, auxiliary power unit, fuel burning heater, and other combustion equipment must be isolated from the rest of the airplane by firewalls, shrouds, or equivalent means.
[(b) Each firewall or shroud must be constructed so that no hazardous quantity of liquid, gas, or flame can pass from the compartment created by the firewall or shroud to other parts of the airplane.]
(c) Each opening in the firewall or shroud must be sealed with close fitting, fireproof grommets, bushings, or firewall fittings.
(d) Removed and Reserved.
(e) Each firewall and shroud must be fireproof and protected against corrosion.
(f) Compliance with the criteria for fireproof materials or components must be shown as follows:
(1) The flame to which the materials or components are subjected must be 2,000 ±150° F.
(2) Sheet materials approximately 10 inches square must be subjected to the flame from a suitable burner.
(3) The flame must be large enough to maintain the required test temperature over an area approximately five inches square.
(g) Firewall materials and fittings must resist flame penetration for at least 15 minutes. .....................
Firewalls.
(a) Each engine, auxiliary power unit, fuel burning heater, and other combustion equipment must be isolated from the rest of the airplane by firewalls, shrouds, or equivalent means.
[(b) Each firewall or shroud must be constructed so that no hazardous quantity of liquid, gas, or flame can pass from the compartment created by the firewall or shroud to other parts of the airplane.]
(c) Each opening in the firewall or shroud must be sealed with close fitting, fireproof grommets, bushings, or firewall fittings.
(d) Removed and Reserved.
(e) Each firewall and shroud must be fireproof and protected against corrosion.
(f) Compliance with the criteria for fireproof materials or components must be shown as follows:
(1) The flame to which the materials or components are subjected must be 2,000 ±150° F.
(2) Sheet materials approximately 10 inches square must be subjected to the flame from a suitable burner.
(3) The flame must be large enough to maintain the required test temperature over an area approximately five inches square.
(g) Firewall materials and fittings must resist flame penetration for at least 15 minutes. .....................
Humour aside, in the very remote chance of a fire in the engine compartment in a 172, turn the fuel off, and the hazard will be very greatly reduced. Engine oil is a very small risk. Now, for a turbocharged plane, the risks are increase a little. If a fire has been caused by turbo scavenge oil being blown onto the exhaust, that's bad. Then, yes, shut the engine down IAW POH procedures. I agree that stopping the engine will stop oil pumping, though a windmilling engine pumps much less oil internally. But, if the engine oil is being pumped into a fire, and you've shut it down, it may seize before too long, and then it certainly won't be pumping oil any more!
I hope that Pilot DAR’s extensive post has laid to rest the urban legend that Cessnas must not be slipped with flaps down. I have slipped various Cessnas (152, 172, 177, 182) with full flaps and have never had any problems. I routinely slip the 1970 182 (40° flaps) that I currently fly and it always behaves impeccably.
Following the thread drift re Cessna slips. Pre 1971 C 172's have a shorter dorsal fin and are more likely to show a tuck under and/or elevator pulsing. I have never experienced this in the later models only the early ones. That been said I teach the full flap slip is an emergency maneuver. Cessna's come downhill pretty well with full flap. If you are still too high even with full flap then instead of slipping you should go around and set up a better approach as the one you are on is outside an acceptable approach flight path.
Moderator
We'll drift a bit to slips in a 172, as I think we've handled the topic of engine fires;
In his book "Cessna, Wings for the World", from which I quote, retired Cessna test pilot William Thompson writes:
"With the advent of the large slotted flaps in the C-170, C-180 and C 172 we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the wing flaps deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against his seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner's manuals under "Landings" reading "Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30 degree due to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle and center of gravity loadings" Since wing-low drift correction in cross wind landings is normally performed with w minimum flap setting (for better rudder control) this limitation did not apply to that maneuver. The cause of the pitching motion is the translation of a strong wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened downwash angle over part of the horizontal tail caused by the influence of a relative "upwash increment" from the upturned aileron in slipping flight. Although not stated in the owner's manuals, we privately encouraged flight instructors to explore these effects at high altitude, and to pass this information along to their students. This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes hard to duplicate. but it was thought that the pilot should be aware of its existence, and know how to counteract it if it occurs close to the ground.
When the larger dorsal fin was adopted in the 1972 172L, this side-slip pitch phenomenon was eliminated, but the cautionary placard was retained. In the higher powered C-172P and C-R172 the placard was applicable to mild pitch "pumping" motion resulting from the flap outboard end vortex impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of sideslip angle, power and airspeed."
I take Mr. Thompson to be an authority on Cessnas, and highly recommend his books. In once did experience the phenomenon while slipping an older 172 with flaps extended. It was startling, though manageable. In all my flying in newer 172's, I have never encountered it.
In his book "Cessna, Wings for the World", from which I quote, retired Cessna test pilot William Thompson writes:
"With the advent of the large slotted flaps in the C-170, C-180 and C 172 we encountered a nose down pitch in forward slips with the wing flaps deflected. In some cases it was severe enough to lift the pilot against his seat belt if he was slow in checking the motion. For this reason a caution note was placed in most of the owner's manuals under "Landings" reading "Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30 degree due to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side-slip angle and center of gravity loadings" Since wing-low drift correction in cross wind landings is normally performed with w minimum flap setting (for better rudder control) this limitation did not apply to that maneuver. The cause of the pitching motion is the translation of a strong wing downwash over the tail in straight flight to a lessened downwash angle over part of the horizontal tail caused by the influence of a relative "upwash increment" from the upturned aileron in slipping flight. Although not stated in the owner's manuals, we privately encouraged flight instructors to explore these effects at high altitude, and to pass this information along to their students. This phenomenon was elusive and sometimes hard to duplicate. but it was thought that the pilot should be aware of its existence, and know how to counteract it if it occurs close to the ground.
When the larger dorsal fin was adopted in the 1972 172L, this side-slip pitch phenomenon was eliminated, but the cautionary placard was retained. In the higher powered C-172P and C-R172 the placard was applicable to mild pitch "pumping" motion resulting from the flap outboard end vortex impingement on the horizontal tail at some combinations of sideslip angle, power and airspeed."
I take Mr. Thompson to be an authority on Cessnas, and highly recommend his books. In once did experience the phenomenon while slipping an older 172 with flaps extended. It was startling, though manageable. In all my flying in newer 172's, I have never encountered it.
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Some forget that the "modern" regs did not exist when most of our aircraft got their type certification in the old and forgotten days.
There are quite a few with a placard "Slips with flaps prohibited".
Anybody trying to sideslip a Jodel with flaps might be in for some nice tumbling if they don't keep the speed high. (They flick around like clockwork if you go too slow.)
Another one is a Morane with flaps and slots out? Oh boy. Better have some altitude and fresh under ware ready. LOL.
There are quite a few with a placard "Slips with flaps prohibited".
Anybody trying to sideslip a Jodel with flaps might be in for some nice tumbling if they don't keep the speed high. (They flick around like clockwork if you go too slow.)
Another one is a Morane with flaps and slots out? Oh boy. Better have some altitude and fresh under ware ready. LOL.
Moderator
There are quite a few with a placard "Slips with flaps prohibited"
Yes, FAR Part 23.177 is more restrictive than it's older equivalent CAR 3.118 in terms of the requirement for slips with all flap positions. The 172 is certified to CAR 3.118, which is more permissive.
I cannot speak for Jodels and Moranes, I have no experience with those types.
"Anybody trying to sideslip a Jodel with flaps might be in for some nice tumbling if they don't keep the speed high. (They flick around like clockwork if you go too slow.)"
No experience with flap Jodels, but over 1500 hours on DR1050 with airbrakes. Nothing in the manual, but I'd read reports of a "flick" which is harmless. I've never managed to induce it while trying to do so, but, as pax, with the pilot sidesliping and airbrakes out, suddenly the wings flicked level. The pilot had never heard of this, and was surprised but not concerned.
The suggested cause is airflow blanking by the fuselage with the underwing airbrakes out.
It may depend on AUW and CofG. That was on the annual air test at near max AUW.
No experience with flap Jodels, but over 1500 hours on DR1050 with airbrakes. Nothing in the manual, but I'd read reports of a "flick" which is harmless. I've never managed to induce it while trying to do so, but, as pax, with the pilot sidesliping and airbrakes out, suddenly the wings flicked level. The pilot had never heard of this, and was surprised but not concerned.
The suggested cause is airflow blanking by the fuselage with the underwing airbrakes out.
It may depend on AUW and CofG. That was on the annual air test at near max AUW.
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the doors open technique, by far the quickest way to get a Cessna to the ground:
- Power idle
-Full flaps
- Hold door open with your left knee or right respective and shove the nose down to max flap speed.
Made that all up by myself and works like a charm.
- Power idle
-Full flaps
- Hold door open with your left knee or right respective and shove the nose down to max flap speed.
Made that all up by myself and works like a charm.
Moderator
- Hold door open with your left knee
But, as we're talking open door on a Cessna in flight (a non approved procedure); if you're flying all trimmed for straight and level, at a modestly slow speed (so you don't damage the door), and you force open the left door a few inches, which way will the plane turn, and why? I have done this many times, and surprised myself as to which way the plane went, and why.....
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I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the doors open technique, by far the quickest way to get a Cessna to the ground:
- Power idle
-Full flaps
- Hold door open with your left knee or right respective and shove the nose down to max flap speed.
Made that all up by myself and works like a charm.
- Power idle
-Full flaps
- Hold door open with your left knee or right respective and shove the nose down to max flap speed.
Made that all up by myself and works like a charm.
The thing that terrified me was trying to stall the beast with full flap and full power. Of course the slats came out and the attitude was extraordinary, while the ASI effectively stopped reading.. I chickened out and pushed to recover; I wonder what it would have done - flicked, or just mushed horribly? Excellent ailerons so there was still good lateral control when I abandoned the effort.
