C172. Engine fire in flight procedure
C172. Engine fire in flight procedure
The POH and my instructor say:
1. Mixture to idle cutoff
2. Fuel selector to OFF
But I read somewhere that leaving the engine running could potentially burn off fuel in the system that would otherwise add to the fire, so if the engine is running better to turn off the fuel but leave the mixture alone. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Any thoughts? If I was able to defend this procedure to an examiner, would it be acceptable?
Thanks
1. Mixture to idle cutoff
2. Fuel selector to OFF
But I read somewhere that leaving the engine running could potentially burn off fuel in the system that would otherwise add to the fire, so if the engine is running better to turn off the fuel but leave the mixture alone. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Any thoughts? If I was able to defend this procedure to an examiner, would it be acceptable?
Thanks
Moderator
If you have a flooded carburettor fire during start (which I was right seat for once) keep cranking, get it running, and pull the fire through the engine, where it will do the least harm. Once the engine has run for a minute, shut it down, and have the induction inspected for possible damage.
A fire in flight will not be an induction fire, as the engine is running. In the case of any fire, remove the fuel, then oxygen, and heat, if possible. In the case of an engine fire in a 172 in flight, you only have control of fuel, so turn it off (mixture and fuel selector). There is only a small amount of fuel available to burn forward of the fuel selector, so don't worry about that. You're headed down then, so just focus on a good forced landing, there's little to burn dangerously up front, if the fuel has been turned off.
A fire in flight will not be an induction fire, as the engine is running. In the case of any fire, remove the fuel, then oxygen, and heat, if possible. In the case of an engine fire in a 172 in flight, you only have control of fuel, so turn it off (mixture and fuel selector). There is only a small amount of fuel available to burn forward of the fuel selector, so don't worry about that. You're headed down then, so just focus on a good forced landing, there's little to burn dangerously up front, if the fuel has been turned off.
Thanks. While we are on the subject, I am being taught to use a viscious side slip at >80Kn to direct the fire away from the aircraft (ie if the fire is on the left, apply left rudder plus right aileron) and to loose height fast. This makes sense to me and is a lot of fun to practice, but it is not mentioned in the POH or anywhere else that I have looked. Any comments? Can I realistically expect to see on which side a fire is seated?
Moderator
Sideslip away from a fire is more a multi engined airplane thing. Sure, if you have a fire in a single, and you think a sideslip will lessen your problem, go ahead. Otherwise as log as you are thinking that could be a possible course of action, the training objective has been met!
It does correspond to the little bit of teaching I received: fly as unstraight as possible, to take the fire away from the humans aboard. Actually it would seem to me more relevant with only one engine, positioned straight before the cockpit. as must be the case for the vast majority of us.
Because everything adds weight and everything costs money......but mainly because it’s not required.
There are also not enough occurrences to warrant it.
we’re not talking engines running at or past their design parameters with rapidly changing loads....like race car engines that are only expected to last one race before rebuilding anyway.
To the original poster ‘double_barrel’ :
Examiners will and should take a very dim view of applicants making up their own procedures.
You shouldn’t. Neither should your instructor.
Unless it’s in a manual from the manufacturer or a publication from an official aviation source it’s a technique and as such subject to opinion.
At this stage of the game you lack the insight and experience to tell correct from tribal law and superstition.
Think about this for a moment:
A C172 does not have complicated electric, hydraulic, pneumatic or fuel systems.
No multiple hydraulic pumps increasing pressures to 3000 psi while heating hydraulic fluid to boiling points.
In a light GA airplane you can have three types of fires: electrical, fuel or oil.
Fuel off and mixture cutoff will starve a fire quickly.
Oil you cannot shut off but if you have a big enough leak for the oil to combust on a hot exhaust then you’re out of oil pretty quickly.
The cowling will contain most of the flames and if it does burn through the cowling you have 65-70mph ( best glide) wind for a fire to deal with.
Again, there is no system like high pressure fuel pumps or hydraulic high pressure pumps to sustain a fire.
Keep in mind where the fuel is in a light GA aircraft....the wings.
You’re probably more likely to get an electrical fire in your wings because of bad wiring then an uncontained engine fire that would I require you to sideslip the flames to where you hold the fuel.
i know that’s what your instructor told you.
They're not always right.
There are also not enough occurrences to warrant it.
we’re not talking engines running at or past their design parameters with rapidly changing loads....like race car engines that are only expected to last one race before rebuilding anyway.
To the original poster ‘double_barrel’ :
Examiners will and should take a very dim view of applicants making up their own procedures.
You shouldn’t. Neither should your instructor.
Unless it’s in a manual from the manufacturer or a publication from an official aviation source it’s a technique and as such subject to opinion.
At this stage of the game you lack the insight and experience to tell correct from tribal law and superstition.
Think about this for a moment:
A C172 does not have complicated electric, hydraulic, pneumatic or fuel systems.
No multiple hydraulic pumps increasing pressures to 3000 psi while heating hydraulic fluid to boiling points.
In a light GA airplane you can have three types of fires: electrical, fuel or oil.
Fuel off and mixture cutoff will starve a fire quickly.
Oil you cannot shut off but if you have a big enough leak for the oil to combust on a hot exhaust then you’re out of oil pretty quickly.
The cowling will contain most of the flames and if it does burn through the cowling you have 65-70mph ( best glide) wind for a fire to deal with.
Again, there is no system like high pressure fuel pumps or hydraulic high pressure pumps to sustain a fire.
Keep in mind where the fuel is in a light GA aircraft....the wings.
You’re probably more likely to get an electrical fire in your wings because of bad wiring then an uncontained engine fire that would I require you to sideslip the flames to where you hold the fuel.
i know that’s what your instructor told you.
They're not always right.
Last edited by B2N2; 16th Apr 2019 at 19:57.
Moderator
i know that’s what your instructor told you.
They're not always right.
They're not always right.
Yes, thing about fire, learn the published procedures, and leave it at that. Thereafter, as you are taught, ask for references to the procedures you're being taught (nearly all should be in the flight manual, which you really should read cover to cover anyway. If an instructor is asserting procedures which are not in the flight manual, ask why. What is the authority for those procedures. Though flying instruction generally follows the standards and lesson plan, I have seen some ideas come from other pilots which had a poor basis in reality. Piloting has been around long enough, that if it's important, it's written down by someone authoritative!
You've answered your own question DB.
Add a
3) Get looking out the window, smartish, instead of doing supposed Merlin techniques to quash the flames, to form your plan early for entry to a big flat field.
And as PilotDar says; published procedures rule! Then YOUR plan (based on your observations out the window), then keeping the two of those things in harmony 'til the wheels come to a stop.
Add a
3) Get looking out the window, smartish, instead of doing supposed Merlin techniques to quash the flames, to form your plan early for entry to a big flat field.
And as PilotDar says; published procedures rule! Then YOUR plan (based on your observations out the window), then keeping the two of those things in harmony 'til the wheels come to a stop.
You've answered your own question DB.
Add a
3) Get looking out the window, smartish, instead of doing supposed Merlin techniques to quash the flames, to form your plan early for entry to a big flat field.
And as PilotDar says; published procedures rule! Then YOUR plan (based on your observations out the window), then keeping the two of those things in harmony 'til the wheels come to a stop.
Add a
3) Get looking out the window, smartish, instead of doing supposed Merlin techniques to quash the flames, to form your plan early for entry to a big flat field.
And as PilotDar says; published procedures rule! Then YOUR plan (based on your observations out the window), then keeping the two of those things in harmony 'til the wheels come to a stop.
Indeed as PilotDar says elsewhere, the POH does not list basic airmanship, and in the event of engine fire or engine fail, it is being hammered into me that action 0 is set the glide speed and select somewhere to land.
I am puzzled that I am being very explicitly taught something that is not in the POH and that you guys tell me does not come under obvious, basic, 'airmanship'. I presume the school is familiar with the examiners' expectations. I will ask more when I am next there. Regardless, it is fun and instructive to set a fast glide at 3,000' AGL and fly a fast and controlled descent with the controls crossed. I think it has helped my flying a lot and made it easier for my brain to manage cross-wind landing and takeoffs. In fact, I am loving the whole engine off flying thing, it takes me back to sailing skills where you cannot just power your way out of a situation but need a long term and accurate planning.
Moderator
I imply that DB is saying that the instructor is training to slip for an engine fire in a 172. While not no, I can't find that procedure in any of the six 172 flight manuals I have reviewed with this question in mind. What I do find, is that from as far back as the 172N, Cessna does state that for a wing fire, to slip to keep the flames away from the fuel tank and cabin. Now, aside from fuel, I can't imagine what in a 172 wing is going to burn enough to notice, but okay, Cessna wrote a procedure, so that's what you do.
But let's dissect Cessna's procedures here: For an engine fire, shut down, and isolate the fuel. For a wing fire, side slip, but there's no mention of shutting the engine down! So it sounds like the instructor is mixing together two different procedures! Perhaps (and I'm speculating) Cessna thinks it's too much to expect a pilot of a 172 to perform a viscous slip with an engine on fire while gliding, so they want the pilot to focus on a good gliding forced landing. And, they're content for you to slip with a running engine for a wing fire. As well as being experts on their planes, Cessna are also experts at evaluating "average" pilot skills, and avoiding presenting needlessly complex or task saturating procedures. They will write what needs to be written, though will very certainly avoid writing more than is needed.
So, when the instructor presents a procedure for slipping for an engine fire, pull out the flight manual, and have a read (again, 'cause you've already read it a few times, right?
) . Look up engine fires - no procedure stating a slip, but look.... a page later, slip for a wing fire! You instructor is required to instruct you in accordance with the flight manual procedures, not to mix and match them....
What we don't want is your faltering recollection during a stressful situation, to have you remembering to shut down the engine, and slip away from the flames when you have a fire, because if it were to be a wing fire, Cessna says you can leave the engine running, so why shut it down?
But let's dissect Cessna's procedures here: For an engine fire, shut down, and isolate the fuel. For a wing fire, side slip, but there's no mention of shutting the engine down! So it sounds like the instructor is mixing together two different procedures! Perhaps (and I'm speculating) Cessna thinks it's too much to expect a pilot of a 172 to perform a viscous slip with an engine on fire while gliding, so they want the pilot to focus on a good gliding forced landing. And, they're content for you to slip with a running engine for a wing fire. As well as being experts on their planes, Cessna are also experts at evaluating "average" pilot skills, and avoiding presenting needlessly complex or task saturating procedures. They will write what needs to be written, though will very certainly avoid writing more than is needed.
So, when the instructor presents a procedure for slipping for an engine fire, pull out the flight manual, and have a read (again, 'cause you've already read it a few times, right?
) . Look up engine fires - no procedure stating a slip, but look.... a page later, slip for a wing fire! You instructor is required to instruct you in accordance with the flight manual procedures, not to mix and match them....What we don't want is your faltering recollection during a stressful situation, to have you remembering to shut down the engine, and slip away from the flames when you have a fire, because if it were to be a wing fire, Cessna says you can leave the engine running, so why shut it down?
Would carb and injection engines be the same? eg. burst high pressure pipe in a fuel injection engine. I recollect a Cessna manual recommending high airspeed for an engine fire, but I haven't flown a Cessna for almost 9 years. Would engine rotation maintain the injection high pressure until the fuel in the pipes ran out? Was there a single Piper fire where the burning high pressure injection fuel sprayed over the outside of the cabin?
The good news is every incident report I have seen where there was an in flight fire, the fire went out as soon as the fuel and ignition were turned off. The ones that ended badly all involved no or incomplete engine shutdown procedures.
This is not rocket science. If you have an engine fire, shutdown the engine in accordance with the POH procedures and execute a forced approach to the best field within easy reach.
This is not rocket science. If you have an engine fire, shutdown the engine in accordance with the POH procedures and execute a forced approach to the best field within easy reach.
C172SP fuel injected IO-360.
its ancient mechanical fuel injection fed by....an engine driven pump and an electrical pump for critical phases of flight.
So mixture idle cutoff - fuel selector off and no more fuel to a fire.
Don’t complicate things.
Unfortunately this is where instructors can damage their reputation and their believability suffers.
Don’t make up stuff that isn’t there.
Once had an instructor for a jet recurrent that had come up with a sim scenario that eventually had you turn off an electrical bus that powered the engine fire extinguishers and then he gave you an engine fire on an ILS below minimums.
We fell for his trap and landed with a fire we couldn’t fight.
Never mind the chances of these 6 steps ever lining up being 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 per 100.000 flight hours.
Possibility doesn’t equal probability in anything in life including mechanics.
An examiner will hold you to a well known and well published standard.
Every instructor has their pet peeves but made up stuff shouldn’t be one of them.
I was once called over and scolded by an examiner for teaching a student a technique which wasn’t in the flight manual and which he promptly demonstrated on his flight exam.
Lesson learned.
Now..I consider it very good practice to theorize about certain events and their likelihood and technique with fellow students, more experienced pilots and instructors and students.
Just a healthy enterprise and good exercise in systems knowledge and understanding.
Reviewing accident reports under guidance is another good way of learning.
its ancient mechanical fuel injection fed by....an engine driven pump and an electrical pump for critical phases of flight.
So mixture idle cutoff - fuel selector off and no more fuel to a fire.
Don’t complicate things.
Unfortunately this is where instructors can damage their reputation and their believability suffers.
Don’t make up stuff that isn’t there.
Once had an instructor for a jet recurrent that had come up with a sim scenario that eventually had you turn off an electrical bus that powered the engine fire extinguishers and then he gave you an engine fire on an ILS below minimums.
We fell for his trap and landed with a fire we couldn’t fight.
Never mind the chances of these 6 steps ever lining up being 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 x 0.01 per 100.000 flight hours.
Possibility doesn’t equal probability in anything in life including mechanics.
An examiner will hold you to a well known and well published standard.
Every instructor has their pet peeves but made up stuff shouldn’t be one of them.
I was once called over and scolded by an examiner for teaching a student a technique which wasn’t in the flight manual and which he promptly demonstrated on his flight exam.
Lesson learned.
Now..I consider it very good practice to theorize about certain events and their likelihood and technique with fellow students, more experienced pilots and instructors and students.
Just a healthy enterprise and good exercise in systems knowledge and understanding.
Reviewing accident reports under guidance is another good way of learning.
Last edited by B2N2; 17th Apr 2019 at 21:26.
I was taught that “sideslipping might help me see where I’m going”, I always presumed an oil fire would come with lots of oil, and that might be all over the screen by now. Sideslipping was mentioned, but nothing to do with the fire per se, to do with visibility.
I think the attitude was “here’s a tool, you might need it, see what happens to your screen if you do have an engine fire”.
To complicate matters further, the emergency descent I was taught was, 2 stages of flap, point the nose at the ground, stay within flap limiting speed. Does a “vicious side slip” get you down quicker, or is there a perception it might?
I think the attitude was “here’s a tool, you might need it, see what happens to your screen if you do have an engine fire”.
To complicate matters further, the emergency descent I was taught was, 2 stages of flap, point the nose at the ground, stay within flap limiting speed. Does a “vicious side slip” get you down quicker, or is there a perception it might?
Does a “vicious side slip” get you down quicker, or is there a perception it might?
However, side-slipping is not necessary to improve visibility. The view out the front during a glide approach is perfectly adequate.
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If the engine is on fire, you probably wouldn't see it as the air flow takes it under the aircraft.
On a stalling exercise i could see the prop was trying to stop every time we pulled the throttle to idle.
Then the engine lost some power when throttle pushed forward, so above a inversion we began to head back to the airfield.
Power slowly regained as we descended so thought it was a mixture problem.
Joined overhead then landed, as the aircraft rolled out the engine stopped but managed to turn off the runway. Bit annoyed with it stopping, i restarted it, then noticed grey smoke coming from the cowling. So evacuated the aircraft with extinguisher and fired into the engine cooling intakes. Later people commented about the four foot odd flames under the aircraft. Turned out to be a faulty carb. flooding. Was AD that hadn't yet been complied with.
I remember my old ex BoB instructor asking what i would do with an engine fire. He said you should pull back to the stall to stop the prop. before descending to stop fuel and oil being pumped out. Said he had seen many aircraft burn up by the pilot trying to blow the flames out. RIP Mike Edwards.
Also when dealing with an emergency, try to get someone else to do the navigation by asking ATC for QDM or radar vectors.
When i was above the haze, the ADF wasn't working and too much time was being used trying to twiddle VOR instead of dealing with the engine problem. The CAA in their wisdom have decided our airfield VDF not fit so can't be used. Shame worked very well for the last 20 years. Another safety item removed by the safety regulator.
On a stalling exercise i could see the prop was trying to stop every time we pulled the throttle to idle.
Then the engine lost some power when throttle pushed forward, so above a inversion we began to head back to the airfield.
Power slowly regained as we descended so thought it was a mixture problem.
Joined overhead then landed, as the aircraft rolled out the engine stopped but managed to turn off the runway. Bit annoyed with it stopping, i restarted it, then noticed grey smoke coming from the cowling. So evacuated the aircraft with extinguisher and fired into the engine cooling intakes. Later people commented about the four foot odd flames under the aircraft. Turned out to be a faulty carb. flooding. Was AD that hadn't yet been complied with.
I remember my old ex BoB instructor asking what i would do with an engine fire. He said you should pull back to the stall to stop the prop. before descending to stop fuel and oil being pumped out. Said he had seen many aircraft burn up by the pilot trying to blow the flames out. RIP Mike Edwards.
Also when dealing with an emergency, try to get someone else to do the navigation by asking ATC for QDM or radar vectors.
When i was above the haze, the ADF wasn't working and too much time was being used trying to twiddle VOR instead of dealing with the engine problem. The CAA in their wisdom have decided our airfield VDF not fit so can't be used. Shame worked very well for the last 20 years. Another safety item removed by the safety regulator.
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I would guess there is about a pint of fuel forward of the fuel selector so once this is turned off there is very little to support combustion forward of the firewall unless you have had a major engine failure and then you have eight quarts of oil inside the engine to burn.
My advice would be to do the fire drill in the flight manual and fly a standard Cessna 172 forced landing just like you practiced in your trainning, the fire will have almost certainly burnt its self out by the time you get on the ground.
IMO the major risk from am an engine fire is getting the forced landing wrong and if you try any of the Spitfire techniques mentioned above the forced landing will take the average PPL into unknown territory and is likely to result in mishandling of the landing.
My advice would be to do the fire drill in the flight manual and fly a standard Cessna 172 forced landing just like you practiced in your trainning, the fire will have almost certainly burnt its self out by the time you get on the ground.
IMO the major risk from am an engine fire is getting the forced landing wrong and if you try any of the Spitfire techniques mentioned above the forced landing will take the average PPL into unknown territory and is likely to result in mishandling of the landing.