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Fuel Pump on TO and APP

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Fuel Pump on TO and APP

Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:04
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ebbie 2003 View Post
when making way for a 747 .
That'll be normally on a Thursday then................

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Old 4th Feb 2019, 22:27
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I've started the Jodel DR1050 O200, taxied almost a mile, and done my run-up on the mechanical pump only. Taken off with electric pump on, and using front tank which has some gravity feed. Switched to rear tank in the climb. No problems. Switched off electric pump, and the engine note changed. Back to front tank, electric pump on, and asked to return.
I had 2 hours fuel in the front tank, and I thought it was a blockage from the rear tank.
No hurry. Although I hadn't declared an emergency, ATC were willing to give me priority over a business jet on the approach. I declined, and landed in a normal sequence.
The problem was fuel pouring out of the mechanical pump, where a pipe had recently been replaced. The pump is at the front, right, with exhausts behind.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 01:56
  #23 (permalink)  
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Yeah, it's an unfortunate situation that a rough running engine can lead a pilot to switch on the electric fuel pump. That can end badly if the problem is made worse by more fuel (like a fire). When I was trained on the Cessna 310, it was a drill to open the cowl flaps (on top of the nacelle) and look for fire before switching the fuel pump on for that engine. This was brought close to home for me when a friend was flying a Cessna 206 floatplane I knew well. He took off, and the engine ran rough, so he selected the fuel pump to high. The cockpit filled with signs of fire, so he landed on the lake ahead. On the water, he knew he had an engine fire, so he shut everything down before he got out to look. By the time he wanted to go back into the cockpit for the fire extinguisher, the cockpit was on fire, so he could not access the fire ex. The engine compartment and cockpit burned, then self extinguished for some happy reason. Two boats which came to assist him both lacked the required fire ex. on board, so the best they could do was take him safely to shore.

I was sent with the dolly truck the next day five miles down the road to fetch it. A crane was hired to lift it out of the lake, over trees and cottages onto the road, where I picked it up with the dolly, and drove it at 10MPH for half an hour to get it back to the airport. Investigation showed that a flare nut had been left loose onto the fuel injection unit, so pumped fuel provided a mist of AVGAS, while depriving the engine, of fuel needed to run. Luck for him that it put him back onto the water, as he was probably on fire during takeoff, and just did not know it yet.

One of my favourite lines from the Penguins of Madagascar movie goes something like: "Captain, I think we're out of fuel...", "Why do you think so?", "Because engine two has stopped, and engine one is no longer on fire!".
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 01:57
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ebbie 2003 View Post
With my PA28 the POH seems to be saying keep it on when below 1,000 AGL - that's what I do - occasionally I will forget to turn it off until well into my climb to cruise altitude.
.
To all you guys flying PA 28 161, 140, 181.

Please read your POH Section 4.5. Cruise checks. It quite clearly states ...

Fuel Pump. Off...AT DESRIED ALTITUDE.

There is no mention anywhere of a 1000 ft limitation. Urban myth.

Not picking on you Eddie, I donít know what model you have, but most people seem to believe in this 1000 ft business here in the UK.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 02:53
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post


To all you guys flying PA 28 161, 140, 181.

Please read your POH Section 4.5. Cruise checks. It quite clearly states ...

Fuel Pump. Off...AT DESRIED ALTITUDE.

There is no mention anywhere of a 1000 ft limitation. Urban myth.

Not picking on you Eddie, I donít know what model you have, but most people seem to believe in this 1000 ft business here in the UK.
So 3wheels, what's your desired altitude?

It strikes me that 1000' AGL is quite a good desired altitude. It gives enough time for your average pilot (a PPL who probably flies less than 20 hours per year) to choose a landing area, plan their approach and perhaps carry out some trouble checks. Perhaps this 1000' figure was chosen by some sage instructors as a simple, easy to remember, good rule of thumb for use by the average pilot.

Also I expect as in other parts of the aviation world student pilots get to practice engine failures at various parts of the circuit (which is usually 1000' AGL) so they have some experience to call upon when making glide approaches from 1000' AGL.

While the POH may not say 1000' AGL, the 1000' AGL isn't being quoted as a limitation it is certainly being quoted as a very good desired altitude.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 03:35
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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In the amplification section of the normal procedures for the Climb it clearly says, and I quote:

”when REACHING the desired altitude, the electric fuel pump may be turned off”.

It says nothing about any randomly selected altitude chosen by a pilot.

Why try to twist the words in the POH? They are there to protect the pilot.

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Old 5th Feb 2019, 07:32
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post
In the amplification section of the normal procedures for the Climb it clearly says, and I quote:

”when REACHING the desired altitude, the electric fuel pump may be turned off”.

It says nothing about any randomly selected altitude chosen by a pilot.

Why try to twist the words in the POH? They are there to protect the pilot.



Actually these days the words in the POH are to protect the manufacturer from litigation.

You didn't answer my question, What is your desired altitude?

The POH doesn't give any guidance on the altitude, since it says "desired altitude". That means every pilot is free to choose their own desired altitude therefore it will be a randomly selected altitude chosen by the pilot. The 1000' AGL figure in my opinion gives some good guidance and takes away some of the randomness that might otherwise exist.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 08:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Shurely one's desired altitude is whatever height you wish to climb to & the pump is on during that climb; then sw. off.
QED.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 09:21
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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I agree, and that means that if you plan to cruise at 500', you can switch it off once you've reached that altitude and have leveled off. Whether it is wise to do so, is another question....
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 10:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=27/09;10380684

You didn't answer my question, What is your desired altitude?

[/QUOTE]

My crusing level,..

Exactly the same as when ATC ask me my desired altitude.

Why twist it?


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Old 5th Feb 2019, 15:02
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Ahem.....3Wheels old chap , ,, Your contributions here haven't really much relevance with anything that the OP asked , apart from playing 'provocateur' and getting other guys hackles up a bit , I cannot quite see the point you are trying to make .
You have just goaded me into hoiking out my old Airtour Warrior 161 check list that I used to use when flying PA-28's about 20+ yrs ago and guess what - the After T/O checks include ; Fuel Pump - Off Above 1,500' . So,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post
Why twist it?
Precisely mate ! Why twist it ? I think we all know roughly what we're doing here don't we ?
In my day job as a simple but contented B.747 mechanic in a nearly large airline , I often have to remind some of the younger guys , if they become a bit anal into invoking the CFS Manual . The C stands for Common and the S stands for Sense .
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and you can effin' well work out what the other one stands for .
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 19:49
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Switching it off at around 1000', you're near the airfield to return. Leaving it on in the climb to cruise altitude, you may have a problem which won't show at reduced power. Then you'll discover it if you need full power again, far from the airfield.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Chris,Maoraih and 27/09...
The reason I brought up the subject of Fuel Pump on the Cherokee is simply because it was mentioned in the second post of this thread. That poster had got the wrong end of the stick,and percieved it correct to start the engine with the pump off.

Another poster appears to select a random altitude to switch it off, instead of at the desired crusing altitude.

Another poster tells us that he turns it off after start and then on for the pre take checks and then leaves it on until he reaches a “ safe height”.

Anoher tells us his “flying club check list” says off at 1500 feet

Finally, another poster tells us that he turns it off at “around 1000 feet” ....so that he can have his engine failure closer to the airfield!

Not one of these is in accordance with the POH which says off at the required altitude.

If any on these posters had read the POH they would also see that it should be on for start (hot or cold) and left on for Taxi and run up. Then switched off (still at 2000 rpm) and the fuel presssure checked...at 2000 rpm...presumably to check that the mechanical pump still provides good pressure at high power.. If that check is satisfactory then it should be turned back on for departure. How many of you do that? Not many it seems.

As others have pointed out the POH is THE guide and you are on your own if you invent your own systems.

The reason I labour the point is that most people who read these pages and fly these Cherokees are fairly inexperienced Private Pilots. I can see some of us are professionals and it is up to us to set them right, nothing to do with trying to getting people’s backs up!

Last edited by 3wheels; 6th Feb 2019 at 19:55.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 20:42
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post
Chris,Maoraih and 27/09...
The reason I brought up the subject of Fuel Pump on the Cherokee is simply because it was mentioned in the second post of this thread. That poster had got the wrong end of the stick,and percieved it correct to start the engine with the pump off.

Another poster appears to select a random altitude to switch it off, instead of at the desired crusing altitude.

Another poster tells us that he turns it off after start and then on for the pre take checks and then leaves it on until he reaches a “ safe height”.

Anoher tells us his “flying club check list” says off at 1500 feet

Finally, another poster tells us that he turns it off at “around 1000 feet” ....so that he can have his engine failure closer to the airfield!

Not one of these is in accordance with the POH which says off at the required altitude.

If any on these posters had read the POH they would also see that it should be on for start (hot or cold) and left on for Taxi and run up. Then switched off (still at 2000 rpm) and the fuel presssure checked...at 2000 rpm...presumably to check that the mechanical pump still provides good pressure at high power.. If that check is satisfactory then it should be turned back on for departure. How many of you do that? Not many it seems.

As others have pointed out the POH is THE guide and you are on your own if you invent your own systems.

The reason I labour the point is that most people who read these pages and fly these Cherokees are fairly inexperienced Private Pilots. I can see some of us are professionals and it is up to us to set them right, nothing to do with trying to getting people’s backs up!
3 Wheels

From your quote of the expanded climb procedures from the POH there's nothing about switching the pump off at the desired cruising altitude, it says "at the desired altitude." That to me means any altitude considered desirable by the pilot.

Therefore the various examples you have picked on , i.e. "safe height", "1500 feet ", "1000 feet", to my mind are all in compliance with the POH. Whether you or I agree with them is another matter.

One other small point. Even though the POH might say to do it, I see no earthly reason to have the auxiliary pump on for starting. Yes, pump on prior to start to check it is working, but off for starting. There is one very good reason not to have it on for starting. If you are unlucky enough to have an engine fire during the start you don't want the auxiliary pump pumping fuel into the engine bay. It has happened.

While the POH is seen as the legally correct document for pilot guidance, it may not be 100% correct. To blindly follow it when the there is very good evidence to show there is a better/safer procedure is stupid. What has to be remembered is not all sections of a POH are necessarily NAA approved.

As I said in an earlier post the POH is there as protection for the manufacturer, and that perversely also means mistakes in the POH are not always corrected as by correcting the mistake opens the manufacturer up to litigation for producing a faulty document in the first place.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 08:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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If any of these posters had read the POH they would also see that it should be on for start (hot or cold)
Which is a great point and something I try teach everyone... made more difficult that the prevelant checklists on sale from Pooleys and the like, as used by most UK PPLs donít follow the POH and say start with it off.. likely because some ex-RAF bloke decided this was a great idea with the argument that at least you know the engine driven pump is working. Iíll stick to following the POH and get funny looks from students while turning the electric pump on for start thanks. More people should read the POH of the aircraft types they fly, instead of trying to gleam bits of information in flying clubs and from the internet.
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 11:58
  #36 (permalink)  
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......checklists on sale from Pooleys and the like, as used by most UK PPLs don’t follow the POH.....
Just a revisit....

Checklist are lists by which the pilot may check (remind themselves) that vital actions have been accomplished. Checklists are not operating instructions, or a "to do" list.

The POH is the source of approved operating instructions for the aircraft, and as a bonus, usually contains an approved checklist, for the pilot's reference. Reference to the checklist provided in the POH is the most certain way to be sure that the operation of the aircraft has been compliant.

If, as the pilot, you missed a vital action item, and were called to account for the omission, could you justify referring to a Pooley, rather than the POH, which is legally required to be on the aircraft?
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 16:52
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 27/09 View Post
One other small point. Even though the POH might say to do it, I see no earthly reason to have the auxiliary pump on for starting. Yes, pump on prior to start to check it is working, but off for starting. There is one very good reason not to have it on for starting. If you are unlucky enough to have an engine fire during the start you don't want the auxiliary pump pumping fuel into the engine bay. It has happened.

While the POH is seen as the legally correct document for pilot guidance, it may not be 100% correct. To blindly follow it when the there is very good evidence to show there is a better/safer procedure is stupid. What has to be remembered is not all sections of a POH are necessarily NAA approved.

As I said in an earlier post the POH is there as protection for the manufacturer, and that perversely also means mistakes in the POH are not always corrected as by correcting the mistake opens the manufacturer up to litigation for producing a faulty document in the first place.
Ah yes the old 'I [insert name of layman] know better than the engineers at Piper who have been designing and building these aircraft for decades' argument.

It boils down to this:

I see no earthly reason to have the auxiliary pump on for starting
...which you use in the context 'therefore none exists'.

There is one very good reason not to have it on for starting. If you are unlucky enough to have an engine fire during the start you don't want the auxiliary pump pumping fuel into the engine bay. It has happened.
There is one very good reason to read the AFM. It has a procedure for engine fire during start. It directs the pilot to turn the auxiliary pump off. The guys at Piper are decades ahead of you in knowing this information and passing it on to any pilot who takes the time to read the manual they provide.
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