UK GA Misogyny;Are Female Pilots Denigrated.
He was right!
In a long running thread thread here on Pprune there have been serious allegations of misogyny aimed at the mainstream flying community.
I have noticed the British Women Pilots Association are not raising their heads above the parapet to substantiate these claims of misogyny in the press and media.
I have noticed the British Women Pilots Association are not raising their heads above the parapet to substantiate these claims of misogyny in the press and media.
Firstly, in my experience, there is absolutely no misogyny regarding email pilots. With the exception of a very few (same with men), they make excellent pilots. My wife is a typical example.
However, we both agree that the very existence of the 'British Women Pilots Association' is sexist. Imagine what some people would say if there was a 'British Men Pilots Association'. Same with the Black Policemen Association. Is that racist? I'm sure we would not be allowed to have a Whiteman version. As far as I am concerned, Pilots are pilots, whether they are black, green, female, gay or whatever. A pilot is a pilot.
However, we both agree that the very existence of the 'British Women Pilots Association' is sexist. Imagine what some people would say if there was a 'British Men Pilots Association'. Same with the Black Policemen Association. Is that racist? I'm sure we would not be allowed to have a Whiteman version. As far as I am concerned, Pilots are pilots, whether they are black, green, female, gay or whatever. A pilot is a pilot.
eg I think groups/clubs or organisations like The Tailwheel Pilot's Association or a Gruman Pilots Group or the Goldfish Club or whatever, makes perfect sense. Not so much 'the nose wheel pilots and navigators association' or 'the pilots who have never ditched a plane yet club' or 'the honourable group of fixed wing owners'.
Most pilot's are male by a big margin - why not a female pilot's group? Female pilots aren't common. Doesn't make them better or worse, just makes them a smaller group.
If most pilots were female then I reckon a male pilot's organisation would be fine. If that was how it was, I would probably want to join! not for any reason other than appreciating and revelling in that I and my fellows are different from your typical pilot.
I think we sometimes try and make simply acknowledging separatedness and enjoying the comraderie of that as more philosophical and political than it needs to be. Nothing to do with with racism or equality - a lot to do with enjoying being out of the run of the mill.
If female pilots become much more common I would suspect the various female only pilot's clubs or organisations would fade away. Until then - why not?
My 2c
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I sort of see your point but think if you are an identifiable minority within a group, there actually is a place for such sub groups. You are part of a smaller band and the comraderie from belonging to a small group feels good.
eg I think groups/clubs or organisations like The Tailwheel Pilot's Association or a Gruman Pilots Group or the Goldfish Club or whatever, makes perfect sense. Not so much 'the nose wheel pilots and navigators association' or 'the pilots who have never ditched a plane yet club' or 'the honourable group of fixed wing owners'.
Most pilot's are male by a big margin - why not a female pilot's group? Female pilots aren't common. Doesn't make them better or worse, just makes them a smaller group.
If most pilots were female then I reckon a male pilot's organisation would be fine. If that was how it was, I would probably want to join! not for any reason other than appreciating and revelling in that I and my fellows are different from your typical pilot.
I think we sometimes try and make simply acknowledging separatedness and enjoying the comraderie of that as more philosophical and political than it needs to be. Nothing to do with with racism or equality - a lot to do with enjoying being out of the run of the mill.
If female pilots become much more common I would suspect the various female only pilot's clubs or organisations would fade away. Until then - why not?
My 2c
eg I think groups/clubs or organisations like The Tailwheel Pilot's Association or a Gruman Pilots Group or the Goldfish Club or whatever, makes perfect sense. Not so much 'the nose wheel pilots and navigators association' or 'the pilots who have never ditched a plane yet club' or 'the honourable group of fixed wing owners'.
Most pilot's are male by a big margin - why not a female pilot's group? Female pilots aren't common. Doesn't make them better or worse, just makes them a smaller group.
If most pilots were female then I reckon a male pilot's organisation would be fine. If that was how it was, I would probably want to join! not for any reason other than appreciating and revelling in that I and my fellows are different from your typical pilot.
I think we sometimes try and make simply acknowledging separatedness and enjoying the comraderie of that as more philosophical and political than it needs to be. Nothing to do with with racism or equality - a lot to do with enjoying being out of the run of the mill.
If female pilots become much more common I would suspect the various female only pilot's clubs or organisations would fade away. Until then - why not?
My 2c
Such nonsense does nothing to aid the fight against true bigotry.
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Misogyny in any discipline is a very delicate subject to discuss.
A woman can easily quote percentages and blame the men for the result.
Men, as in the recent debacle, would find it difficult to prove that they are not being misogynistic.
We can all sit here being indignant and righteous etc, but there are situations where women are not suitable, Gengis and Clare Prop have mentioned one, I think the military is another. Women demanding the right to fight on the front line for instance.
There is a big difference between being treated equally and being the same. What would the prognosis be in the case of a squad of soldiers containing six men and two women all in the age bracket of 20/25 captured by the typical enemy they would face today? Being capable of an afternoon jaunt up the Brecon Beacons with full kit is all very well, surrounded by your own side!
It would be, in my opinion, perfectly natural for the men to attempt to protect the women and put their own lives in jeopardy in the process. Or a female solo fighter pilot. No doubt she could use the aircraft just as effectively as a man, but what does she face when she gets shot down? And how do her superiors feel about it?
A woman can easily quote percentages and blame the men for the result.
Men, as in the recent debacle, would find it difficult to prove that they are not being misogynistic.
We can all sit here being indignant and righteous etc, but there are situations where women are not suitable, Gengis and Clare Prop have mentioned one, I think the military is another. Women demanding the right to fight on the front line for instance.
There is a big difference between being treated equally and being the same. What would the prognosis be in the case of a squad of soldiers containing six men and two women all in the age bracket of 20/25 captured by the typical enemy they would face today? Being capable of an afternoon jaunt up the Brecon Beacons with full kit is all very well, surrounded by your own side!
It would be, in my opinion, perfectly natural for the men to attempt to protect the women and put their own lives in jeopardy in the process. Or a female solo fighter pilot. No doubt she could use the aircraft just as effectively as a man, but what does she face when she gets shot down? And how do her superiors feel about it?
Consider recent extraordinary award citations for women in (e.g.) Afghanistan and Iraq. Any suggestion that they are fundamentally unsuited for front line roles in the military is obviously flawed.
Examples:
Pte Michelle Norris, MC (Pleasingly, I see that her nickname is given as "Chuck".
)
Flt Lt Michelle Goodman DFC
Examples:
Pte Michelle Norris, MC (Pleasingly, I see that her nickname is given as "Chuck".
)Flt Lt Michelle Goodman DFC
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Genghis.
I didn’t mean “in a flying role” I meant situations (general) sorry it was unclear. I was referring to your martial arts comments.
However it does prove that it is a delicate subject!
I didn’t mean “in a flying role” I meant situations (general) sorry it was unclear. I was referring to your martial arts comments.
However it does prove that it is a delicate subject!
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hoodie
You have completely missed the point I was making.
I did state that a female could no doubt use the aircraft just as well as a man.
I am merely stating/thinking that men are (generally) programmed to protect their women.
It may not be PC to do that in this day and age, in which case, my apologies, I’m obviously too old and decrepit to have noticed.
Delicate subject!? Jesus!
You have completely missed the point I was making.
I did state that a female could no doubt use the aircraft just as well as a man.
I am merely stating/thinking that men are (generally) programmed to protect their women.
It may not be PC to do that in this day and age, in which case, my apologies, I’m obviously too old and decrepit to have noticed.
Delicate subject!? Jesus!
Consider recent extraordinary award citations for women in (e.g.) Afghanistan and Iraq. Any suggestion that they are fundamentally unsuited for front line roles in the military is obviously flawed.
I was a very junior party to some of the discussions regarding the physiological limitations of women flying combat aircraft many years ago.
In one exchange ,the point was put forward that women could: "Suffer a prolapsed uterus during ejection "
The counter to this was a classic; " You are talking about one of the most powerful muscle systems in the Human Body"
"Err ......How strong?"
"Enough to break a man's wrist. Would you like me to introduce you to some Gynecologist friends of mine? "
In one exchange ,the point was put forward that women could: "Suffer a prolapsed uterus during ejection "
The counter to this was a classic; " You are talking about one of the most powerful muscle systems in the Human Body"
"Err ......How strong?"
"Enough to break a man's wrist. Would you like me to introduce you to some Gynecologist friends of mine? "
As a male I know there are ladies who far exceed my humble abilities, both mentally and in physical prowess. Prior to going to Vietnam, serving as a Navy pilot, I had to do some "grunting" with the Army, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that I would have been a liability to any grunt squad, I just wasn't equipped with the necessary physical attributes to be lugging a ton of weight on my back, weapon etc. I was the runt in the family, though my brother was a strapping lad and served in the conflict as an Army infantryman. Irrespective of sex, mental capability or physicality each has a niche. Nice to see the ladies filling all, plumber, electrician, carpentry, pilot, or whatever.
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Due to the recent posts regarding the military I believe my previous posts have been seriously mis understood.
i am not questioning the bravery, capabilities or suitability for any task in the military by women.
I was trying to imagine how I would feel in a situation where a squad were captured by the type of enemy that the world is facing today. Bloodthirsty terrorists that do not just kill people!!
I would not like to be forced to watch as a female companion in the squad was being gang raped repeatedly or whatever else they may choose to do to a female as opposed to a male prisoner.
My posts were merely trying to point out MY view in THAT situation.
If that attitude is considered misogyny then I have seriously misjudged the compassion of the human race today.
I do not care one bit if the female were to say. “I accept the risk”. I (me) would rather not.
Citing acts of extreme bravery by women in the face of such risks does not address the issue.
i am not questioning the bravery, capabilities or suitability for any task in the military by women.
I was trying to imagine how I would feel in a situation where a squad were captured by the type of enemy that the world is facing today. Bloodthirsty terrorists that do not just kill people!!
I would not like to be forced to watch as a female companion in the squad was being gang raped repeatedly or whatever else they may choose to do to a female as opposed to a male prisoner.
My posts were merely trying to point out MY view in THAT situation.
If that attitude is considered misogyny then I have seriously misjudged the compassion of the human race today.
I do not care one bit if the female were to say. “I accept the risk”. I (me) would rather not.
Citing acts of extreme bravery by women in the face of such risks does not address the issue.
To be frank, if you have any more, or less problem with a woman versus a man being emprisoned, tortured or killed : or simply being exposed to risk - that is an issue you need to address with your own innate sexism. Making that a restriction on somebody else is totally unreasonable.
G
G
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Genghis
You are standing in a queue, it is raining heavily, you are wearing a raincoat carrying an umbrella. A man and a woman, not a couple, both unsuitably dressed for the weather, join the queue. Do you offer your umbrella? Who to?
You are standing in a queue, it is raining heavily, you are wearing a raincoat carrying an umbrella. A man and a woman, not a couple, both unsuitably dressed for the weather, join the queue. Do you offer your umbrella? Who to?
To be frank, if you have any more, or less problem with a woman versus a man being emprisoned, tortured or killed : or simply being exposed to risk - that is an issue you need to address with your own innate sexism. Making that a restriction on somebody else is totally unreasonable.
G
G
My uncle used to land his Lysander behind enemy lines to pick up SOE agents in WW2, many of them women, very very brave women. I doubt there was time to offer them an umbrella.
If that makes you uncomfortable then you underestimate us.
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@crash one. I know where you are coming from with that sentiment- as a young child and even into my late teens my father would guide me to be a “protective” element towards the women in my life. That’s just the way it was then. Centuries of male “dominance” of the social environment/work place caused that conditioning to a point where what was deemed acceptable for a male to endure would make the blood boil if a female were subjected to the same.
However, society (rightly so) has moved to a more (not yet totally) equal footing where what one human endures should not cause any difference in our emotional response. I am frequently being called a dinosaur by my kids for some engrained “responses”. Apparently you’re not allowed to do “gentlemanly” things anymore🤔!
There should be no restriction on what anybody is allowed to do in life and I am a firm believer that if anybody can do the job and accept the associated risks then they should be allowed to follow that path. As GTE states, in the scenario you put forward we should be equally horrified in mans inhumanity towards fellow man - regardless of race, gender, age or (dis)ability.
However, society (rightly so) has moved to a more (not yet totally) equal footing where what one human endures should not cause any difference in our emotional response. I am frequently being called a dinosaur by my kids for some engrained “responses”. Apparently you’re not allowed to do “gentlemanly” things anymore🤔!
There should be no restriction on what anybody is allowed to do in life and I am a firm believer that if anybody can do the job and accept the associated risks then they should be allowed to follow that path. As GTE states, in the scenario you put forward we should be equally horrified in mans inhumanity towards fellow man - regardless of race, gender, age or (dis)ability.
