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In-cockpit videos

Old 27th Oct 2018, 11:32
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Come on, Nurse! Here we all were hoping to read about your experiences flying with an instructor......are you actually going to do it, or is it all still about installing cameras? Come on, lad, inspect the aircraft, walk all around it, make sure to let us know if you notice anything that isn't right....with particular attention to control surfaces.....do you know what they are and what they control?
Flying from time to time in the US, and finding that the aircraft itself looked like it needed some serious maintenance, I have changed my mind about flying that Cessna over Chesapeake Bay. Have . you thought about where you are planning to do your flying? Review the charts, if your instructor had a heart attack, what would you do to save the situation? Would you be able to navigate? or radio for assistance..... Actually, for that matter, are you physically fit to fly? Before solo, an aviation medical may be a good idea. After all, if you are not physically fit for a license, you might like to know about it before spending any money at all on flying lessons.
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 11:39
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
They are when using WiFi.
how else are you supposed to connect Skydemon to pilot aware then? genuine question?

wifi is the only way as far as I know.

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot View Post
What do you mean by "timeline?

artschool, I'm obviously no expert here, so I can just refer you to what I've found. Do you have a source for the rules that say stuff like iPads and pilot aware is allowed?
I think the poster meant when are you going to go flying?

its been ten days since you posted about learning to fly and we have had some good weather, have you had a chance to go for your first lesson yet?
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 13:30
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mary meagher, I think it would be quite difficult to install a camera to record the flight after that flight is complete.


artschool, I don't think I have a timeline per se, if I'm understanding the term correctly. This is mostly to do with my decision to do PPL here in the UK, so 0-PPL may take a month or it may take six, depending on the weather as we all know. If I were taking it in Bartolini in Poland, then the timeline would be obvious. I think I'm answering the question correctly? If someone can rephrase the question, I'd be happy to clarify.

As luck would've had it, today was supposed to be flying day. I was told lessons were cancelled even yesterday due to strong crosswinds with the first flight of the day just barely making it back. The whole instigator of this thread is the fact that I've booked my first flight with the school! I would've loved to have flown earlier but this was the closest slot they had that didn't interfere with work and it seems that my luck is still what it is!
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 14:12
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weather is a pain. when's your next lesson booked for?
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Old 27th Oct 2018, 14:17
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This Tuesday. The rest of the week will be work and then off to London for the Careers Live event! Busy week!!
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 08:24
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N2P, have you had a Trial lesson yet?
Trial lessons are fun, I think you are underestimating the workload after that. If you’re not overloaded at all times for the next 45 hours, you’re not doing it right.

At our school we had a chap who wanted to learn to video flights at the same time as learning to fly, he accepted it would take many hours longer to get a license, he even did the odd flight with the instructor flying.

You seem to to think you can learn to video flights and learn to fly at the same time. In fact, you seem to want to learn to video flights more than you want to learn to fly.

Videoing flights is not something you can just “do” even once you have a license. Generally, Pilots are not from the “YouTube generation” so we don’t understand the obsession younger people have with videoing everything, so you’ll get a little bit of push back here because of that.

Go do some flying, you might find out what we are all on about. Go and learn to fly, learning to take videos will not help you learn to fly. Watching videos will not help you learn to fly. Learning to analyse videos of yourself learning to fly will definitely not help you learn to fly.

Have you flown in a light aircraft yet? On the Flyer Forum there is a dedicated student bit, why not start a “my journey” thread in there.



PS. A few years ago a rainbow appeared to my right during a take off roll, and as we climbed the ends of it contracted till I looked at a rainbow circle. I’ve seen some things in my life, that one makes it into the top ten. I watched it, I didn’t video it, I don’t care I didn’t video it, I watched it in real time and was awestruck. One of my friends would have whipped out his iPhone and watched it on a tiny little screen, while it was happening live in front of him, so he could show it to other people on a little screen later. The non YouTube generation find that odd. (and a bit of a shame tbh). We can’t comprehend that behaviour and my friend can’t comprehend I wanted to watch it, not film it. He doesn’t see a difference, I can’t understand how he doesn’t see a difference.
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Old 28th Oct 2018, 19:05
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Thanks for your input, kghjfg! Interesting username there too!

I'm not as YouTube generation as you may think. As mentioned in my first and second post, the videos will most likely be just for private use.

I don't really understand what you mean by "learn to video flights".... there isn't much to it at all. Press a button, the GoPro camera records, and that's it. Not very much to learn there! There will be an initial challenge of setting up the cameras but again, with just two cameras and knowing what angles I want to capture, it won't be much work. A few minutes in the cockpit would sort that out and those few minutes do not have to be the at the same day as the flight lesson.

Perhaps you are thinking about editing the video for it to be an interesting YouTube video? If so, then I agree with you that this will take some time and some artistic learning, but this is not what I want to do at this time. All I need for now is to sync the two capture streams and the ATC audio stream and I'm done. I've done this before and it's a 5 minute job, if that. Remember, the idea is just a boring recording of a student as he is learning to fly, and I'll only have two cameras with fixed views, so even if I wanted to make a YouTube video, I won't have much footage to play with and will need more than just two cameras to make an interesting video.

Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
On the Flyer Forum there is a dedicated student bit, why not start a “my journey” thread in there.
I'm not sure I see where this forum you're referring to.



One of my friends would have whipped out his iPhone and watched it on a tiny little screen, while it was happening live in front of him, so he could show it to other people on a little screen later. The non YouTube generation find that odd. (and a bit of a shame tbh). We can’t comprehend that behaviour and my friend can’t comprehend I wanted to watch it, not film it. He doesn’t see a difference, I can’t understand how he doesn’t see a difference.
He has saved that unique moment and was able to capture it to share it with friends and family that were not able to have the experience. This is akin to taking photos of your holiday to share with friends and family. Surely you and other people not of the "YouTube generation" do this? He may have not enjoyed it as fully as you have, but he clearly had a different goal compared to you.

He may have watched it on a tiny little screen but playback need not be on the same screen. It may very well be, as it is easier to just whip out the phone and play the video, but depending on how far back this event happened and how tech-savvy your friend is, an iPhone 7 released in 2016 can capture 4K video at 30fps or 1080p video at 60fps, so he may be recording the rainbow circle on a tiny iPhone screen but he can show it off on a 60" 4K television later on.
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 02:09
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N2P, Sure, it's not a big deal to make a video of your first few lessons, and with a little more effort, edit the video. And then, you have a video which interests no one, with your time, effort, and camera expense. That time, effort and expense, had it been devoted to learning piloting, rather than video'ing, would have carried you well through the basic ground briefing, and understanding of the first couple of lessons. For sure, the cumulative replies about video'ing by some very experienced pilots here, probably equal what we pilots would have offered, to give you good piloting advice for those first few lessons! So often here, I have offered advice on piloting, it's a piloting website. Sure, I know about video'ing too, and as I have posted, what I know about video'ing, is that it should be prevented from distracting new pilots.

You can assert that the camera, once set to record, does not distract you while learning - yeah, maybe. But the whole effort does distract you from learning piloting! What'll you do first when you get home, get to the books and study piloting, or pass the books by, and download and edit your video? Oh, now it's 8:30 PM, and you've been at the editing for a few hours, watching the video again and again, and making it perfect - for no real reason. And, you're too tired to focus on the books. You just missed out on the best opportunity to reinforce your learning of the day. So you'll spend your money in an operating airplane the next time, re learning something, which might have stuck if you reviewed the proper training material, rather than home made videos with dubious relevance to training. It's the equivalent in my mind of going home from a flying lesson, and flying your computer flight simulator, rather than reading training books - you're equally likely to reinforce bad learning as good. The books present the right stuff, your videos may not, and you may not know the difference. Would you expect another person to learn correctly by simply watching your videos? No? How then will you?

I had a student who liked to video everything, and I thought of him today, as I watched a great video he took while I landed. It was a smooth landing (on a lake, with a really great 360 degree turn on the step) - I have the video, I had the landing, he had the ride. As I anticipated, he left off flight training, went tech, and is now a drone operator. Great! We need drone operators. But, he's not an airplane pilot. That's all okay, not everyone has to be an airplane pilot. But this discussion is taking place on a pilot forum, where we presume that participants either are, or are pursuing being pilots. The best way through this, particularly considering the cost of operating a plane for learning, is to devote that part of your life to that task, to the exclusion of distracting tech which is not needed, and not helpful.

N2P, I know that you're rolling your eyes, thinking to yourself, geeze.... another old non tech dissenter, who just does not get how important it is to N2P to have videos of his/her accomplishments in the cockpit. Well, my experience was earned by undivided devotion to learning to be a pilot. I was regularly ahead of my lessons by extra time study, and spent several occasions waiting to be old enough to take the next test, or earn the next license. I, and others here, have offered our best advice, as pilots, on a pilot website, about the value of home made videos as a learning tool for basic instruction - little.

Whether you take the advice to leave the camera at home or not is uncertain to me. But, I'm writing to a lot of other new pilots here, who are reading, but not posting. They also pay attention to what they read, and valuable advice offered.

As for wifi/bluetooth, etc. in aircraft, generally it is expected that these systems be formally tested and approved by aviation authorities. Yes, some people operate these systems aboard aircraft, and land safely. But if you operate a transmitting system in an aircraft, and it does interfere with the important aircraft systems, will you know that's happening, and the erroneous indications? The testing is called EMI testing, and there's a lot to it. But please instead of researching that, research just learning the basics of piloting, so that one day, your well earned advice will be valuable to another aspiring pilot!
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Old 29th Oct 2018, 16:16
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Timeline question was just how often you were able to dedicate to it - take a month off work and sink £8k or do what I did and spend 18 months over sunny weekends (not as many as one would hope for!).

I am 34 and consider my self to be quite tech orientated. I very recently qualified and on my first trip solo took a GoPro with a clamp, phone and a digital SLR for the trip down to Bembridge. The GoPro stayed in the bag - I realised while working through the check list that I did not want my wife to have a post-mortem video of me doing something stupid : ). As has been said, you have a limited time period with the aircraft so setting up camera just eats into prep and flying time. The SLR stayed on the passenger seat left on and was raised to the window maybe 10 times total when there was a particular view. But again the pics do not do the experience justice. The first time the land below gave way to sea, just not a feeling that can be captured with film, although the couple of pics of the aircraft carrier in the Solent made for good talking points!

You have a captive audience here that [to some extent at least!] enjoys the way you convey yourself, challenging the opinions given is no bad thing. Not sure about the others but I look forward to reading your accounts of those first few lessons and how they make you feel. The elation/fear/frustration all at the same time. Write about that and ask the instructor to take the occasional pic then we will all be happy!
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 02:09
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9 lives, thank you again for your input. Trust me, there is no rolling of eyes here!

Allow me to try to clarify four assumptions you've made:
Video interest - I think you're still missing the point of this exercise. I may end up after a flight with just an hour of video from each camera, only 1-2 minutes of which will be interesting. I'm not taking a video for the 58 minutes of boring, I'm taking the video of the 2 minutes that is useful. As it is hard to predict when that useful bit of video will happen during the flight, I will need to record the whole thing so as to "set it and forget it" and not be distracted by having to operate the cameras during flight. Again, this video is for flight review or performance review, not to be interesting or entertaining. It's a bonus if it gets all of that, but that is not the goal.

Editing time - As for editing the video, like I said, it'll take 5 minutes or so and done. Maybe even quicker the more used to it I get. It will nowhere take hours and there's no need for it to be perfect. All it needs is for the two video streams to be in sync with the audio stream so that it doesn't look like a badly-dubbed old chinese action film, save the file, done. Rendering the video will take time, but I can simply click the render button and go back to studying or go to bed.... no need to babysit this process.

Backup time - I also don't have to do this immediately after the flight, I can do it the next day or the day after and save the immediate post-flight evening for brain dumping and recording what I've learned or reading or whatever that is best done at that time. Nowhere in this thread have I mentioned that I'll be doing this straight after a flight.

Purpose - it is not to record my accomplishments but rather my mistakes. I have no interest in replaying the things I'm already doing correctly but I have great interest in the things I'm doing wrong. Why did I do it wrong? Did I mis-judge the aircraft attitude? Was I distracted by looking at one gauge instead of another? and so on...


I'll say it again --- I value the piloting advice you and others have given, but this thread was supposed to be about recording in-cockpit audio and video, not what to do before/during/after my flight lessons. People keep responding to the thread by responding to their own assumptions instead of reading what is written and addressing that. Sadly, people who may come to this thread to read about how to take in-cockpit audio and video will find little on that topic and loads and loads of info on another. However, I do hope they listen to the warnings here and if they think they may fall into issues mentioned, that they re-assess their plans on taking in-cockpit videos.

I do agree with you regarding bluetooth though. It's one more thing to test and worry about and it's really easy just to reach over and click the record button on the GoPros so no need for this layer of complexity!



AlexJR, unfortunately, the decision to do training in the UK meant not taking time off work and sinking 8K into it. If that was the plan, then I'd have gone to Bartolini instead of the local flight school. The timeline will be however long it takes for me to sync up my free time with a free slot and good flying weather. Luckily, I have three or four days off per week and it's not always on the weekends so maybe that'll go in my favor.... maybe not. We'll see!

Prep time - as mentioned, the aircraft already has a clip mount for the behind-the-head GoPro. The one that will be facing the pilots will need a bit more prep time but that doesn't have to be at the same time as the flight and once the RAM mount is set, it's a simple process of attaching the RAM suction mount to the glass windshield or window. If the suction mount proves to be unreliable, then perhaps putting another clip mount near the desired location will be a solution, with some clever use of the RAM system to still have the camera end up getting the same view. Therefore, while prep time will be an issue at the start, once things are in place, setting up the camera should take minimal time. After a few flights, it will become routine and just done and not spared another thought.

Stupid - I'm not really concerned about this as training time is really the time to be doing stupid things, having those stupid things identified, and having it weeded out. Since it's for private use only (myself and instructors), I'm not bothered and the earlier it is identified and sorted, the better.

Sharing - Those instances where you raised your SLR to take pictures was 10 instances where people could definitely argue you've become distracted. Should I expect to encounter such interesting views, I would either borrow another GoPro (or see if I can snag one cheap!) or point one of my cameras outside, press the record button, and just fly. With the wide FOV of the GoPros, it'll be hard to miss a good shot!

Training - I'm keeping a log of journey but I'm sure this has been done to death already by both modular and integrated pilots alike! I'll definitely post some questions and such but didn't really think of sharing the log. kghjfg did mention a Flyer Forum but I don't seem to see it anywhere. Thank you for being a "captive audience" though and I will share whatever you want to read! Maybe we can compare notes; I also like reading about other people's experience!
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 03:27
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Google “Flyer forum” !!
it’s associated with Flyer magazine.

Take this in the spirit it’s asked...
I’m wondering if you think that a GoPro would have helped you learn how to ride a bike? or a GoPro in the back of the car during driving lessons would have helped?

BTW, if you think you’ll be making 2 minutes of mistakes and 58 minutes of flying, you might want to strike that and reverse it.

You’ve still not answered as to whether you’ve flown in a light aircraft yet? I only ask because it still seems like you are putting the cart before the horse.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 08:21
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Where will you do your training? Asking because I want to be sure to stay away from the area. You talk about mounting a camera on the glass windshield or window thus creating a blind spot impacting on lookout. I am absolutely horrified you have an instructor who is happy for you to do that.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 09:09
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good luck for your first lesson today!
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 10:11
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Originally Posted by artschool View Post
good luck for your first lesson today!
+1

enjoy!
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 11:36
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Yes, as the less cynical have said, good luck!

I take your point on the distraction - just as checking the map, SkyDemon, carb heat etc. all distract you from looking out. We do these things when straight and level having just had a good look out. I guess for me it's about recording a snapshot of a moment that sticks out. If you look at some of the trip reports, the compelling ones are the pictures + commentary, not the videos. But that is off topic, the question is whether it is a useful learning tool and that will be for you to decide.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 12:59
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artschool, jonkster, AlexJR - thanks guys! Unfortunately, the sky doesn't look too good plus it's cold out, so I wonder if we're going flying today. I'll visit the school later anyway and see if I can do look at the PA-38s and do some setup practice. Not yet sure about when the next "first" lesson will be booked, some issues with instructor availability going forward but this is another topic I'll be taking up with them when I visit later today. EDIT: Looks like the sky's clearing up though! I wonder if anyone has cancelled for this afternoon and I can take his place?

AlexJR - regarding distraction, I was just pointing out that being distracted 10x in a flight vs. having a camera to record everything and then just picking the good moments later on once safely on the ground --- does this mean my method is safer? Yes, we already do other things in the cockpit so one less (or ten less) distraction will help? Not to mention a really expensive loose item in the cockpit! I'm sure your SLR is not as rugged as an action camera!
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 13:12
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attaching the RAM suction mount to the glass windshield or window
I suggest that you have the permission of the person who owns the plane (not just the instructor, but the owner). I do not allow headsets on the glareshield, for not wanting scratches on the inside of my windshield, so I certainly would not be sticking things to the inside of the windows. I agree that the suction cup itself will not scratch, but dirt, or if someone wipes off the smudge after, may result in a scratch, and you don't want to know the cost to replace a windshield. As said, if to stick something on a window, in your plane of view, you're obstructing outside vision, I would not allow that.

If you're attaching something behind you, make sure that it cannot come off and hit you during the crash. To meet safety requirements, it must be able to withstand a 9G times 1.5 factor of safety force. It is very unlikely that your instructor is qualified to make this assessment, seek the concurrence of the aircraft maintenance person.

PA-38's are lots of fun! They're crisp to fly, and worth the effort in precise learning. Some pilots nay say them, but I flew a couple of them for a few hundred hours, and quite liked them.
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 13:15
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kghjfg - I Googled it, are you referring to this site? https://forums.flyer.co.uk/
Sorry for the confusion, I thought you were talking about a subforum on PPRuNe and not a different forum altogether.

In all honesty, I'm not sure if a GoPro may have helped with learning to ride a bike or learning to drive a car; I've never thought about it. However, we are starting to introduce cameras during training sessions in the workplace and during a simulated emergency scenarios with 15-20 people in the room, the recorded footage can be quite valuable. So maybe it depends on what is being recorded? I think there clearly is value to recording things and it is better to have useless footage of an event than to have missed a good learning opportunity because I did not think there was value to recording the event.

As for making mistakes, if I think 2 minutes out of 60 makes the video recording effort worth it, does anyone really think having more learning opportunities out of 60 minutes will make video recording less valuable?

It's funny how willingly and easily people seem to jump onto assumptions of ego and vanity, skill level, and wasted effort, yet cannot seem to get into the assumption that I've had some flying experience. To answer your question, yes, I've flown light aircraft and gliders. I've also taken and edited videos, normally for special occassions like birthdays and wedding anniversaries. I've just not mixed the two before (video capture and flying) and definitely not in this way that I'm attempting now (with ATC comms), hence the thread.



rarelyathome - I thought you've stopped and left? Can't resist to return and make an absolutely hilarious assumption as to the size of the blind spot and how it impacts lookout? Here, I've made you a picture so you can see how small the blind spot is.






If you're worried about me and my little PA-28/PA-38 making circles in the sky, you may want to find out where these guys are flying out of! Not only are they flying with at least two GoPros blocking that all-important lookout, they're flying a slightly bigger aircraft too, a 747! The horror!!



Article - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/t...s-landing.html
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 13:30
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C'mon N2P.

As the first photo shows, you could block out several airplanes in formation with that much vision blocked! A GoPro is small, but so is relative traffic. If on a true collision course, an on coming airplane may appear to have zero relative motion to you, and thus "appear" to stay at the same angle of view - meaning a plane could stay blocked behind you GoPro for some time, unless you're doing the neck thing to constantly look around it (distraction).

The two pilots in the jet cockpit have twice the lookout power, and between them no blind spot, and they are flying in a fully controlled environment the whole time, with ATC traffic separation, and TCAS. They are not actually required to look out the windshield for a lot of the flight.

You mention using the video later for training, that could be very good if a qualified trainer is reviewing the video with the student(s). I trust that you don't just record the video, and send a copy home with each student, with the instruction that they watch it, and see if they can spot any errors! That's how poor training would be done! For the video you collect, is it your plan to pay your instructor their time to review the video with you? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to just pay them for their time in the lesson as the rest of us have?
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Old 30th Oct 2018, 14:06
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N2P. I own a go pro so know how large they are. 9 lives has given you a reply as to why your comment to me does you absolutely no credit. When you have been flying for a few lessons, you will see just how small a conflicting aircraft is until it is very close. That there is no relative movement between 2 aircraft on a collision course means that any blockage of lookout is dangerous. You will soon start to wonder whether that really is a squashed fly on the windscreen or a conflicting aircraft.
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